03-16-2009, 01:36 PM | #701 | |
Quasi Evil
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Quote:
My thinking is that a large black monolith from space visited our chimp friend one night… Clearly space aliens are conspiring to evolve chimpanzees and de-evolve us! Planet of the Apes is just around the corner people!! Wake up before its too late!!
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03-16-2009, 05:48 PM | #702 |
Elf Lord
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Thanks, IR. I guess if they had piled up twigs.....
All, On the OBAMA front, I came across this excellent consideration of the embryonic stuff (see above) and an evaluation of its "science" component that is worth your reading, I think: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...031202764.html
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
03-16-2009, 07:39 PM | #703 |
Elf Lord
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Well, I read it. In what way is it an evaluation of the "science" of embryonic stem cell research?
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
03-17-2009, 10:52 AM | #704 |
Elf Lord
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I quite agree that there was no evaluation by the President of the science, SACA. This was fulfilment of a campaign promise and has nothing to do with science. For that you will have to cull from these factually-laced articles:
http://www.catholic-sf.org/news_sele...wsid=3&id=1059 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/14/us...einfels&st=cse http://www.osvdailytake.com/2009/03/...integrity.html The middle one is from the NYT, by the by. The same sort of "faith" or "religious belief" in the materialism of "stem cells, embryonic" is evidenced here: http://www.slate.com/id/2213707/ because, as I constantly remind everyone, zygotes become embryos become fetuses become babies become children become adults. In short, where they are, you were; we all were.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
03-17-2009, 11:10 AM | #705 |
Elf Lord
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I know you see it that way, but I really see it differently. I see a woman's contribution (VOLUNTARY) as essential to the process, and I don't recognise as a "person" anything that hasn't been born yet.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
03-17-2009, 02:18 PM | #706 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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There are times when I'd even raise that bar until at least the age of eighteen.
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03-18-2009, 06:07 PM | #707 | |
Word Santa Claus
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Quote:
On the topic of science, I believe that this change by Obama is scientifically motivated, in the interest of increased our knowledge and our ability to, scientifically, use these stem cells to extend, improve, and most importantly save the lives of those already born.
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03-18-2009, 07:32 PM | #708 |
Elf Lord
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Count Comfect, you show me the sperm or the egg that can become human all on its own without another source for its half supply of DNA and then you might have an argument. Sperm nor egg are capable of producing a human alone. That is why the zygote is the initiation of the human and, with some carbohydrates and oxygen, becomes you.
The potential for a human being is not present in the single sperm or egg alone as the DNA is not adequate. This is simple scientific fact in regard to humans. The wastefulness of the numbers of sperm and eggs is not an argument for the production of zygotes which become embryos which can then be experimented upon as though they were not human. They are the first that is human in toto. Whether they survive the wastefulness of the uterus and subsequent reproductive cycle is also not an argument that embryos are not human. The reality is sperm + egg = zygote which becomes embryo which becomes fetus which becomes baby which becomes child which becomes adolescent which becomes adult = you. It is also readily apparent that other avenues of stem cells are more productive and reliable.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
03-18-2009, 09:22 PM | #709 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
Dear carbohydrates and oxygen, It's a special day for you a time for me to say thanks for placenta and O2 that made me what I am today. Your formerly hosted zygote, Jimmy. Inked, if you can show ME a zygote that can become a human all on its own, you'll be closer to proving a point that remains theological.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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03-19-2009, 12:03 AM | #710 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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So should a woman feel guilty everytime she ovulates without choosing to try to conceive the child? Is she killing a potential human being?
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
03-19-2009, 12:46 PM | #711 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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Quote:
The zygote is a zygote until it is anything else. The fetus is a fetus until it is anything else. The child is a child until it is anything else, and the adult human being is an adult human being, and whatever it was, and whatever its potential allows it to become, it is then and there an adult human being. This is why I believe that turning off the lights on the zygote, and in the first medically recommended stages of a fetus, is okay, whatever emotional feelings it invokes. Until the zygote and the fetus have become something medicine strongly discourages from removing, they are a zygote and a fetus, and not a human being, and certainly not you or me. Zygote Coffeehouse is not Human Being Coffeehouse. It shares nearly identical traits as Zygote Chicken Coffeehouse, Zygote Duck Coffeehouse and Zygote Fox Coffeehouse, much less so with Human Being Coffeehouse. If Zygote Coffeehouse isn't in the plans, that's the end of him, if not, some day he might be (luckily he pulled through) Human Being Coffeehouse. But Zygote Coffeehouse has no green card, no inherent right in becoming Human Being Coffeehouse. And there are no sanctimonious golden letters engraved on his Zygote-body. Zygote Coffeehouse like Zygote Chicken, Duck or Fox, has no more right in becoming the actual manifestation of his DNA-potential as any of the above-mentioned. Anyways, don't we have an Abortion-thread for this?
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." Last edited by Coffeehouse : 03-19-2009 at 12:58 PM. |
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03-20-2009, 10:21 AM | #712 |
Elf Lord
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Gee, Coffeehouse, I thought this thread was about science. Kindly point out exactly where the science is wrong. For instance, where do you get an embryo or a fetus or a baby without a zygote.
If you wish to say that -on the basis of your argument- an apparent human less than thirty cm in length is an organ source and not a person entitled to protection as, say, a baby whale would be, why you cannot use it as an organ source for those able to afford it. Perhaps you'd like enclaves of these "organ donors non-persons" to be available, as posited in several sci-fi scenarios? Since they are legally denied personhood - not scientifically- what exactly would be wrong with "experimenting" or "utilizing" them? This is the science thread. When you disprove the link between zygote and all that follows then we can discuss the other ramifications of arbitrary decisions to enable what you desire. But until then, the science stands.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
03-20-2009, 03:10 PM | #713 |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
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If so, men are killing potential human beings to a much, much greater extent
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03-21-2009, 12:44 AM | #714 | |
Word Santa Claus
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Quote:
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03-21-2009, 06:51 PM | #715 |
Elf Lord
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CC, you are not seriously suggesting a cabbage patch origin for babies, are you? ;>)
Produce the baby without a zygote, please. Then we shall reconsider. Even in the alleged parenthood of same-sex couples SOMEBODY provided egg and SOMEBODY provided sperm but not until a zygote was a human and all humans (even the donors in this example) are from a zygote. You cannot have a human without one. It is the first identifiably human cell from which all humans exist. That fact doesn't change depending on the location of the zygote - intrafallopian or in vitreo - does it?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
03-21-2009, 07:13 PM | #716 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
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We do have a thread about abortion here to discuss this subject. The abortion thread left off discussing zygotes as well so it should be pretty seamless to pick up the discussion.
General science discussion that doesn't have its own thread already can stay in this section.
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03-21-2009, 11:14 PM | #717 |
Word Santa Claus
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To return to an upthread discussion (not very far upthread either): sea otters also use tools (they bring up rocks to later bash shells on).
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03-22-2009, 12:00 AM | #718 | |
Elf Lord
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I still remember how proud I was of drawing the clam shell on the belly.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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03-23-2009, 01:26 PM | #719 | |
Quasi Evil
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Quote:
But do they secretly stash them so they can throw them later on at tourists who think they are cute?
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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03-23-2009, 03:23 PM | #720 |
Elf Lord
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No, cute is the otter's stock in trade. Without "cute" they're rapacious carnivorous members of the weasel family with promiscuious lifestyles.
__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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