Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Yes. . .what with Henry VIII, Martin Luther, etc, it was probably more the undermining of the authority of the Roman Catholic Church that allowed there to be a more scientific thought. Hmm, will have to look at my history textbook, maybe they'll say something about it. Right. Anyway.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

First off, so as not to seem to be avoiding the question, that is pretty close to accurate, but not entirely. But I think it is only fair to say that many religions believe that their religion is true, and that many (or all) other religions are not. This applies also to atheism, although many would not consider it a religion; but quite simply, it teaches that there is no God, and that those who believe so are superstitious fools, or at the best dead-wrong.

Re: Elfhelm, I will merely say that much of what he has said is false, and seems generated from assessments of a dead and empty shell of Christianity.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

hmm, and now everyone finds out just how nostalgic for times i didn't live in i am. . .
yes, that's true, most religions today are thusly exclusive, including Christianity, Judaism, Atheism, etc. Mostly what I was referring to in terms of general inclusiveness was a. my beliefs and b. the older, pre-Christian religions. That is, they basically had their gods, and other people had their own gods and rather than saying they were wrong and their gods false, it was more, they can worship their gods, I'll worship mine, and not so much of this "your gods are false and don't exist" stuff.

Speaking of my beliefs. . .well, I know before I said I'm an atheist. I no longer am. Just to clarify.

Hmm, question. . .what of Elfhelm's statements are there that you find to be false? Just curious. . .

[Gwaimir Windgem]

1) He stated, basically, that Christians don't give a damn about the environment. I'm sure this is true of some Christians, as it is of some Atheists, and no doubt some of any non-nature-oriented religion. But it is an unbiblical viewpoint. We are told over and over to be good stewards, at times specifically of the world we live in.

2) That Christianity teaches "the more you proselytise, the bigger your home in Heaven is, and therefore Christians take the tiniest oppurtunity to proselytise". This is also a non-Christian belief, as it emphasises Works over Grace. Again, I'm sure that some empty shells of churches out there preach it, but that does not make it Christianity, which teaches that we are saved by grace, through faith. Now, I'm not saying we don't believe that we are rewarded, but we are rewarded for the heart attitude (if that's an appropriate term), not the work. I. E. if we see a beggar asking for alms, and we think, "If I give him money, I'll get an extra room in my heavenly home" and give him money, this will not be rewarded. But if we think, "That man is in need, and a fellow human being, I should help him" and give him money, then I do believe that would be rewarded.

3) This was a while ago, so I'm not quite sure about it, but I think he stated that Christianity teaches, or at least condones, the outright hatred of homosexuals, because homosexuality is deemed to be wrong by our religion. Again: Christianity (or that which calls itself by such a name) is very wide-spread, and I'm sure some homophobes (probably a good number of them) use it as an excuse, but this is NOT Christianity. "Love your enemy", Christ says, and if we are love those who are flatout our enemy, are we then to hate those who act in a way which they do not deem to be wrong, but which we do? I think not! I have a co-worker at Burger King ( I know, I suck ) who is a good, fun, and kind person. But he also has a tendency to steal from the Company. Stealing is wrong according to Christianity. Does this mean I should hate him? By no means!

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Thanks for pointing those out

Yeah, those are some broad generalizations, and therefore not correct. Generalizations=bad, not to mention the fact that as I recall the teachings of Jesus were centered around love, not hate, and stewardship, not blatant overuse of the Earth. I think.

However, I think there are some things that Elfhelm has said that I do agree with, thus the "yay for Elfhelm" thing on the vampire thread.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yeah, those are some broad generalizations, and therefore not correct. Generalizations=bad, not to mention the fact that as I recall the teachings of Jesus were centered around love, not hate, and stewardship, not blatant overuse of the Earth. I think.

Most definitely agree with that. Though of course, that doesn't mean that it's just like a "anything goes" type of thing. "I come not to destroy the Law, but that the Law through me might be fulfilled".

I was kind of wondering about that...

[MasterMothra]

Rian, just wanted to let you know that i did finish "the case for christ" a while back and found it interesting. i will also try reading some lewis as you and grey mouser recommended.

[Rían]

Thank you very much for letting me know, MM Any comments? (either here or in PM)

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Most definitely agree with that. Though of course, that doesn't mean that it's just like a "anything goes" type of thing. "I come not to destroy the Law, but that the Law through me might be fulfilled".

I was kind of wondering about that...

What Jesus meant in that passage, I think, is that he comes into our hearts and brings us into the life of love, in him. If we're born again, as it says in the Bible, we do not continue to sin, for God's seed is in us. Not to say we are sinless . But we aren't bound by our sin, and we are forgiven, and also, Jesus does really come and focus his eye on the different sins in your life, and bring them to your attention. Particularly if you let him, or ask him to. Something that's never nice to have done, but which is sometimes necessary .

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Just to be slightly obnoxious and pose more questions:

here's one we spent most of the semester on in my philosophy of law class:
where does law (in general) come from? morality, or just a human creation to create order in society?
To clarify: there is the first stance (Natural Law Theory), which can be devided into the Thomas Aquinas brand: law is handed down from god, and that is that, or the newer type, in which law is from morality, but our moral codes are not necessarily from god? oh dear, i'm forgetting some stuff, I think i'll have to drag out my textbook...but anyway, i thought it was a pretty interesting question. I might post some quotes from the essays we read later. If people are interested, that is.

[Rían]

Hi, EG, sorry I'm so late answering this one, I've been thinking about it tho. I should be able to get something posted on Monday, if you're interested.

ANy other opinions?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
1) He stated, basically, that Christians don't give a damn about the environment. I'm sure this is true of some Christians, as it is of some Atheists, and no doubt some of any non-nature-oriented religion. But it is an unbiblical viewpoint. We are told over and over to be good stewards, at times specifically of the world we live in.[/B]

Hey!!! I'm an Atheist and I happen to love this land. I give money to many organizations that support our environment, including the Sierra Club and Green Peace. I actively write to my government (state and national) in support of environmental issues. I participate in beach clean ups and state and national park clean ups and local park clean ups. I petition for more green areas and I've pushed for alternative fuels to be used more and supported by the government.

I've seen more Christians, with their fish stickers and WWJD stickers on their cars, toss trash out of their windows driving down the streets and highways than Atheists.

I consider you a friends, Gwai. Would you say that I don't care for this land? And, by the way, what do you do for this land, Gwai?

[Coney]

1) He stated, basically, that Christians don't give a damn about the environment. I'm sure this is true of some Christians, as it is of some Atheists, and no doubt some of any non-nature-oriented religion. But it is an unbiblical viewpoint. We are told over and over to be good stewards, at times specifically of the world we live in.

Feel I've gotta respond to this as well.

In the UK the terms "christian" and "environmentally friendly" are definitely not synonymous with each other .

The Church of England is the biggest landowner in the UK and they are infamous for leasing out that land for any pupose.

Within a fifty mile radius of my hometown I know that the church has leased out land to build a shopping mall (europes biggest no less ) and four opencast coal mines (these are mines that extract coal, not by tunneling but by scraping off the surface, layer by layer....I know at least one of these mines covers a seven mile radius).

Environmentalist charities are constantly battling with the church over it's leasing policy in the UK.

Sorry, but when it comes to care for the land, over here Church=Profit from the land.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Coney
.... and four opencast coal mines (these are mines that extract coal, not by tunneling but by scraping off the surface, layer by layer....I know at least one of these mines covers a seven mile radius)....

*cringes and shudders*
Here, in the US, that's called 'Strip Mining'.... as far as I know, it is still legal. But in 1977 there was a law passed that collects twice as much money from strip (or surface) mining of coal than underground mining of coal. The money goes into a reclamation fund to clean up the mess. I don't think it does a very good job, though. It's very sad.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Ruinel
*cringes and shudders*
Here, in the US, that's called 'Strip Mining'.... as far as I know, it is still legal. But in 1977 there was a law passed that collects twice as much money from strip (or surface) mining of coal than underground mining of coal. The money goes into a reclamation fund to clean up the mess. I don't think it does a very good job, though. It's very sad.

Luckily we've got similar laws in the UK........but considering that mining in those sites can go on for 15+ yrs........it's little comfort

[Lief Erikson]

Merely by living, individuals pollute. No one can help it, and there's no way to stop making any more pollution whatsoever. Keeping it down is important. God made man the caretaker of the animals and the Earth, and that's a big responsibility. It is Biblical, therefore, that we not ruin our world.

How much pollution we should prevent and how much we should permit is the only question, then.

What Gwaimir's pointing out is that there is a Biblical order for us to take care of our environment, and Christians are bound by that. Nonchristians don't feel themselves to be bound by that, but many do feel it is very important to do that anyway, simply because it's right.

Gwaimir didn't say that all Christians are perfect, or that all Christians are nonpolluters. If we are major polluters in the area where you live, Coney, then we might be failing in one of our jobs.

Of course, there are probably reasons why the Church is doing that, besides the desire for money. If there's a need for money, then that might help explain it. It could simply be looked at as the lesser of two evils- we're not aware of what's going on behind the scenes.

In the places where Christians simply dump coke cups in ponds or throw plastic bags on the ground in parks, that is simply blatant ignoring of what God told us to do, and that is plainly wrong.

[Coney]

Of course, there are probably reasons why the Church is doing that, besides the desire for money. If there's a need for money, then that might help explain it. It could simply be looked at as the lesser of two evils- we're not aware of what's going on behind the scenes.

While I admire you optimism Lief......I think you're wrong.

As I've already said, the Church of England is the biggest landholder in the UK...The Queen is the head of the Church of England, so I don't think for a moment that there is a need for money.

The feeling in much of the [environmentally aware] people is that they lease land to whoever will provide the most profit :/

Merely by living, individuals pollute. No one can help it, and there's no way to stop making any more pollution whatsoever. Keeping it down is important. God made man the caretaker of the animals and the Earth, and that's a big responsibility. It is Biblical, therefore, that we not ruin our world.

This is one of the things I have grown to respect about the Bible (especially considering the date(s) in which it was written)......and from a personal POV it is one of the teachings which is often overlooked.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
What Gwaimir's pointing out is that there is a Biblical order for us to take care of our environment, and Christians are bound by that. Nonchristians don't feel themselves to be bound by that, but many do feel it is very important to do that anyway, simply because it's right.

Gwaimir didn't say that all Christians are perfect, or that all Christians are nonpolluters.

I know Gwai, fairly well... as well as someone can know another without meeting them and just communicating through the computer. And I know that he doesn't think that all Christians are perfect.
My beef was that he knows that I am an Atheist and he said we do not have a tie to this Earth. Likewise, you say it again there, in your post. And you are both incorrect.
We are all made of star dust. Our bodies contain the same basic particles that make up every thing in this Universe. It is only a matter of arrangement that we are not a tree or a sparrow or a river or the blazing sun that furnishes the energy that runs the show here. We are tied to this place and what lies beyond it in a most fundamental way that goes beyond the belief in a supernatural being that may or may not have created the Universe. And if we sully this place where we live and breath and breed and survive, then what will we be doing to ourselves but contributing to the ending our own existence. That is not in our best interests as a species. Not to protect this place would be detrimental to the Human race.

In the places where Christians simply dump coke cups in ponds or throw plastic bags on the ground in parks, that is simply blatant ignoring of what God told us to do, and that is plainly wrong.

I'm glad you think so.

[Lizra]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
Rian, just wanted to let you know that i did finish "the case for christ" a while back and found it interesting. i will also try reading some lewis as you and grey mouser recommended.

I have that book. I enjoyed it, except the technical descriptions of crucifixtion. Poor Jesus, and all the other people who were put to death in such a horrendous way. Another book I found of interest is "Stealing Jesus" by Bruce Bawer. "It's byline reads...."How Fundamentalism betrays Christianity." I've not finished it.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Hey!!! I'm an Atheist and I happen to love this land. I give money to many organizations that support our environment, including the Sierra Club and Green Peace. I actively write to my government (state and national) in support of environmental issues. I participate in beach clean ups and state and national park clean ups and local park clean ups. I petition for more green areas and I've pushed for alternative fuels to be used more and supported by the government.

I've seen more Christians, with their fish stickers and WWJD stickers on their cars, toss trash out of their windows driving down the streets and highways than Atheists.

I consider you a friends, Gwai. Would you say that I don't care for this land? And, by the way, what do you do for this land, Gwai?

Ruinel, I said that some Atheists no doubt don't give a damn for the world, and that this was probably true of any religion/belief system/theology that is not nature based. I would certainly never say that this is true of all atheists, as I believe some of the most radical environmentalists are atheists.

I've seen more Christians, with their fish stickers and WWJD stickers on their cars, toss trash out of their windows driving down the streets and highways than Atheists.

Are you sure that's true? I know I hardly ever see fish or WWJD stickers. Maybe every two or three months.

You consider me a friends? Are you saying I'm fat enough to be two people?

I certainly wouldn't have said that you don't care for the land before; I would have said that I don't know the way you feel about the whole environment issue.

I'm not very much involved in issues of any sort, as in like protesting and stuff like that; my efforts are more solitary or personal, like cleaning up what litterers leave behind, and things like that (and of course, not littering myself ).

EDIT:

Originally posted by Ruinel
And if we sully this place where we live and breath and breed and survive, then what will we be doing to ourselves but contributing to the ending our own existence. That is not in our best interests as a species. Not to protect this place would be detrimental to the Human race.

Okay, this surprises me: it seems that you are not talking about environmentalism for the sake of environmentalism, but that we should take care of the earth for our own benefit...