06-11-2008, 07:38 PM | #681 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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But for me, the answer is painful, but honest. We're alone here, and intelligent life on other planets (I think this is a good possibility) is so far away that we can not share our existence with them.
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
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06-11-2008, 08:19 PM | #682 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Nor did I. Things work out in funny ways, don't they?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
06-11-2008, 08:37 PM | #683 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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Lief---I see you believe the Orthodox split off of Catholicism instead of vice versa. Now I have two of them to deal with *mutters*
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06-11-2008, 09:08 PM | #684 | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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Of course the analysis is incomplete, though. It was just a post, not intended to be a book. I'm glad you're going to be preparing a longer answer for the summer, though. Quote:
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In any case, without having his work presented and argued, that reference in no way disproves anything I said. I've actually looked into some of the scientific attempts to explain NDE's, and these efforts so far look to me very hypothetical. Quote:
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Even your belief about Christianity could be taken as proof of this (from your perspective) all by itself. 2 billion people in the world who disagree with you about Christianity being wrong have their worldviews framed by an erroneous set of beliefs, from your point of view. So we have to be very limited and susceptible to error. Quote:
As for my claim about the how effective seeking God can be, I can point to the millions and millions of converts to Christianity who claim to have sought God and found him in powerful personal experiences when they looked persistently. I'm one. I sought God and found him, because he promises, "He who seeks finds." I endured six months of aching, painful searching before God revealed himself to me, but when he did, it was very clear to me that it was God. Quote:
On the other hand, 2 billion Christians believe in Christ, and hundreds of millions of these claim to have encountered him themselves. None of them will say they actually believe he's fake, because they know he isn't, and in many countries, they die for him, which proves their sincerity about their personal experiences with him. Nowhere is this evidence more dramatic than in the case of Jesus' disciples. All of them except John died for their faith in Christ, which proves their sincerity about their beliefs. Now, religious people all over the world have died for their beliefs, and this too proves their sincerity, but it doesn't prove the truth of their beliefs. It does in the case of Christianity, though, because these ten knew for a fact, from their own experiences as eyewitnesses, whether what they were saying about their eyewitness stories was true or false. All ten claimed to have encountered the resurrected Jesus and declared to be true all the stories of the Gospels that they are written as witnesses of. Lots of people die for false beliefs, but no one dies for what they know to be lies. All ten of the disciples died, in torture or grisly executions, for the truth of their own eyewitness accounts. Therefore we know beyond all credible doubt that they sincerely believed that they had seen and spoke with their resurrected Lord, that they sincerely believed they had seen him eat meals in their company after the resurrection, that they sincerely believed they were in his company when he rose into heaven. In short, we have eleven eyewitnesses of these events who all were willing to accept torture and death rather than admit that they were making some of this stuff up. This proves their sincerity. And it makes it very, VERY hard to rationally escape the truth of Christian doctrine. Quote:
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But this thing, we're both agreed, is a matter of perspective. You see prayer as disconnected from the economic surge, though you can't possibly know that you're right. I see prayer as very possibly connected with it, and I can't possibly know that I'm right. So there we are. Quote:
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3993857.stm I think your account of Chinese history has a good deal that's accurate, but you leave out all of the sordid elements of China's history. But in any case, I don't care to debate any of it, as none of it refutes anything I said. God works through the natural, as occurs repeatedly in the stories of Israel's history in the Bible, where God raises up nations to punish them for their sins (natural forces used by a spiritual being). Quote:
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The eyewitness story of a million people, plus photography and film footage, accompanied by all kinds of healings, is strong evidence. So is the blood of the disciples, because they knew whether what they were dying for was true or false as they claimed to be eyewitnesses of it, and if they were lying about any part of their story, at least SOME of them would have cracked under torture and said so, and consequently been spared and his confession used to humiliate the Christian communities. People die for beliefs they don't know are lies, but they don't die for beliefs they know are lies, and the disciples claimed to be eyewitnesses of the Gospel accounts of the resurrected Jesus. Quote:
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It's worth noting that even if there was only the tiniest fragment of evidence supporting Christianity, that would be more than a non-believer could ever possibly have, because there can never be any evidence supporting the hypothesis that God doesn't exist. So if any Christian who knows any of the evidence supporting Christian truth argues with an atheist (even if he only knows the tiniest bit- like that St. Margaret had a vision, and nothing more than that), they'll have more evidence and therefore a more rational position than an atheist can ever have. Quote:
Before you start (if you start), I'll admit right now that my analysis is certainly incomplete. There are too many true facts to make a thorough presentation- you have to pick and choose. I was trying to write a post, not a history book. Quote:
Anyway, I'll look forward to your short-term response to this post and your much later possible post in response to my historical argument about the roots of economic development in the Enlightenment.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-11-2008 at 09:22 PM. |
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06-11-2008, 09:11 PM | #685 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Yeah .
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*Starts fancily flipping about in his hand his still deactivated lightsaber.* P.S. BTW, you're Protestant, right?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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06-11-2008, 10:59 PM | #686 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
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No, I'm Eastern Orthodox. Eastern/Byzantium half of the Roman Empire.
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ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide |
06-11-2008, 11:41 PM | #687 | |
Kraken King
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Under the sea
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Human senses are extremely limited. Many animals that we would call "primitive" (stomatopods, for example) can sense goings on in our environment that we cant. The can sense a much, much wider range of light that we can, and in fact have the most complex eyes in the animal kingdom. We cant even detect this light. We cant detect certain smells, but we know they are there (as Lief said) through advanced technology. Also, how does one count beauty? Better, how does ech person here describe beauty in their own words? I see it as an artistic design, meticulously thought out and intimately known.
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
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06-12-2008, 12:29 AM | #688 | |
Elf Lord
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You should be Roman Catholic, though . IMHO . Hey, at least we're much closer in ideology now than we were while I was Protestant! On the bright side .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-12-2008 at 12:31 AM. |
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06-12-2008, 12:33 AM | #689 |
Kraken King
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As did Vlad Dracula (son of Vlad Dracul).
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
06-12-2008, 03:53 AM | #690 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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Right, yes! Him too.
Lol. BTW, way back on post 664, I responded to one of your posts.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-12-2008 at 03:57 AM. |
06-12-2008, 08:41 AM | #691 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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I like the part where Lief says "People have died (or are dying) for their belief in Christ as God, therefore he's real."
It has a Manifest Destiny naivete that's kind of charming, in a theocrats-take-over-the-world way. I know people who have died for all kinds of things, and I know of ,ore. Like dying for political liberty, or scientific advancement. Of course people have died to preserve slavery, and because they idolized another human...I never considered the strength of anyone's faith said anything about the validity of their object. I think Lief attributes too much to Man, while he's saying he doesn't. He points out the errancy of beief in quarks, because publishers might be untrustworthy, but thinks a much older story is inerrant. It's an interesting contradiction, imo.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
06-12-2008, 10:56 AM | #692 |
Kraken King
Join Date: Aug 2007
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I know, kind sir. But it will have to wait until tonight.
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
06-12-2008, 11:29 AM | #693 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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That's what I was saying.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-12-2008 at 11:32 AM. |
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06-12-2008, 11:31 AM | #694 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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Just making sure . . . that post was very, very buried, and I'm so longwinded I can EASILY accept people not reading all that I post.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
06-12-2008, 11:34 AM | #695 |
Kraken King
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Under the sea
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Dont worry, I've been keeping up.
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
06-12-2008, 11:49 AM | #696 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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You say "They were eyewitnesses, therefore they were right." It doesn't follow. Eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable, and easily fooled. People will die for things they believe are important...and whether I believe they were correct is a different issue, entirely. Take an ordinary, everyday example. Motorcycle helmets. Despite ample evidence that wearing a motorcycle helmet may prevent death or brain damage, many people don't wear one. Is that because they wish to die? Maybe in some cases, they aren't concerned about that. Maybe they believe having the 'right' to louse up their health is more important than the risk. Maybe they assess the risk as being slight. In any rate, they die for a combination of reasons. You're willing to believe witches can attack people. That opens a range of possibilities for explaining the behavior of the Apostles that really runs a distance. Maybe they were under hypnotic compulsion, or a spell, that made them self-destructive. Maybe they thought the things Jesus represented were worth dying for. Maybe there was a Savior, but Jesus wasn't it, and they got it wrong. Maybe the Last Supper was bung-full of ergot. At some point, you have to just say, "I have faith" because anything else is completely unprovable, don't you see? I have heard stories of things that happened 6 months ago, which I witnessed personally, which bear NO resemblance to my experience, at all. I've had conversations and differed about the content between breakfast and lunch. Have you ever heard your parents have the "I thought you were picking up the milk" conversation? People are easily confused. Therefore, I don't rely on people (including the Apostles) for evidence on the existance of God. I, personally, think that evidence is widely available, anyway.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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06-12-2008, 12:04 PM | #697 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Copenhagen
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Yes I mind that. I want absolutely nothing to do with that fairy tale. But I know you intend well
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
06-12-2008, 01:29 PM | #698 | ||||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Okay, Coffeehouse.
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Four or five witnesses to an event are considered very important evidence in a courtroom even if they weren't willing to die for their testimony. We have ten, all of whom died for their beliefs, usually in grisly fashions, and often after torture. If they were faking parts of it, at least one of them would have made damaging admissions under that kind of pressure. The kinds of claims they made about their experiences with the post-Resurrection Jesus are of such a kind that the idea that the disciples were fooled becomes extremely unrealistic. Quote:
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Faith in Christianity is about practicing one's beliefs. The evidence that Christianity is true is overwhelming. However, when one has to act that out in one's personal life, it becomes a lot harder. If you have to trust in God for a miracle, or to get you through something, or you feel his voice telling you to do something and you're afraid to do it, this requires faith. And no amount of argumentation and evidence is going to make the difference at the moment the walking out of one's faith forces you to move out of your comfort zone. Quote:
By the way, thanks for the politeness and respectfulness of your post.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-12-2008 at 01:33 PM. |
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06-12-2008, 01:57 PM | #699 | ||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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06-13-2008, 11:13 AM | #700 | ||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
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"The Enlightenment" with a capital "E" refers to a specific thing: an intellectual movement in the 18th Century, with roots going back to Descartes, Leibniz, and Newton and the Royal Society in the 17th Century. In Britain major influences were Bishop Berkeley, Locke, Hume, and Adam Smith; in France the Encyclopediasts, Diderot, d'Halbach, Condorcet, and above all, Voltaire; in America , Ben Franklin, Sam Adams, James Madison and Thomas Jefferson. Its members were Deists or (a few) atheists who believed in reason, equality, science, and liberty- even slave-owners like Jefferson acknowledged slavery to be morally wrong. Slavery (and anti-semitic laws) were abolished by the French Revolutio,; they were re-introduced by that nice Italian Catholic boy Napoleon Bonoparte, who didn't have any truck with that crazy French radicalism. Quote:
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Since this was 28 years before Martin Luther was even born, I think it's stretching things to blame this on the Protestants Quote:
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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