Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Aewionen]

I am a Christian as well ( I had no clue there were this many on entmoot!!) and I would also like to know what non-Christians think about our religion. (I have all ready seen a bit) but ya.....thats pretty much it.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Actually, I wasn't asking what people think about Christianity; I'm afraid that would be too likely to descend into a flame war, particularly from what I've seen about how strongly some people here seem to be against it. I was asking rather what people think Christians believe. For instance, a woman from Pakistan spoke at my church recently, and she displayed a belief that many Muslims think that Christians worship three Gods: God the Father, God the Mother Mary, and God the Son. Also, in an attack on Christianity, someone said that Lucifer was cast from Heaven because he questioned God. And someone thought that Christians believed that the more converts you get, and I think the more good deeds you do (don't remember for sure on this one), the bigger palace, and the bigger rewards you get in heaven, whereas I know that I at least believe that "man looks on the outside, but God looks on the heart"; and that it is not deeds that are rewarded, but virtues and heart attitudes that are rewarded. I. e. if someone is poor, and you think "Here's a chance to get another jewel in my crown!" and give them food or money, it does no good to you (though it does to them). If you think "That person is in need, and I should help them" then THAT I believe would be rewarded.

So, is there anyone out here who would be willing to give a few ideas of what their understanding of Christian beliefs are?

EDIT: Can't believe I forgot this: Welcome to the Entmoot, Aiweonen (hope I got your name right!)

[Aewionen]

Oh. I would like to know too. I once heard someone say that since we believe we were made in God's own image, that we worship ourselves. That of course is not true. Good topic to bring up!

close enough on the name thing...I forget to sometimes

[markedel]

What non-Christians think about Christianity? Why does it matter? I really have no interest in what people think about my beliefs? Such debates end up devolving into flames. I'd rather have Christains explain what they believe and then I'll evaluate it myself.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by markedel
What non-Christians think about Christianity? Why does it matter? I really have no interest in what people think about my beliefs? Such debates end up devolving into flames. I'd rather have Christains explain what they believe and then I'll evaluate it myself.

I agree with you on the possibilty of it devolving into a flame war - but I disagree that's it unimportant to know how others view your religion. Without knowing how others view your religion - it just perpetrates their negative stereotype or misinformation. Although I do feel your personal beliefs are your personal beliefs and that doesn't matter. I don't have to justify my beliefs to others - but I think an understanding and acceptance is important.

There is a lot of hatred, although there has always been really, between the different religions. Without understanding accepting other's beliefs - we will never have peace.

By the way GW - I got the three Gods thing a lot too because I grew up Catholic. Also - some people think that the saints are worshipped as gods too because they're prayed to.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I don't really think that would be liable to develop into a flame war...if people were to post their opinions on Christianity (or, most likely, other religions), then that quite possibly would. But what I was asking was could people post their perception of what Christians believe, like in the examples I gave above.

All right, I'll begin with the things above:

1: Three Gods. We do not worship three Gods, but in fact One God who has three main "aspects"; that of the Son, that of the Father, and that of the Holy Ghost. While some Catholics do tend to deify Mary to a certain degree, I don't think any of them out right worship her.
2: Lucifer. He was not cast from Heaven because he questioned God, but because he sought to overthrow Him, to rise above and replace Him.

Also, someone said that Christians only deify Christ so that they can be human, that Christianity is only an excuse to cover up for us, so that we can act in whatever manner we like. Firstly: This is not at all a part of actual Christianity. No doubt many people who claim to be Christians (and even true Christians) do use it as such. But this is not what Christianity is about; this is a misuse of the religion, and should not be attributed to true Christianity, as it is in fact a failing of Christianity, as were the Crusades and the Inquisition. You don't see Christians leading armies in war against the non-Christians today, do you? The last of those wars was years and years ago. It was not even, I think, likely to have really been caused by religion, and was probably an attempt to unite the peoples of Europe, or to solidify the hold on them, or both. Again, these are NOT Christianity.

[congressmn]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
And now onto a new subject, since it appears that everyone agrees with everything I've said on all of the previous topics

My 7-year-old posed a question that I really don't have an answer to from the Bible, so I thought I'd throw it open to you guys -

We were talking about the pros and cons of various pets, and my 7-yr-old said he didn't like worms because they pooped (they currently have a worm in a little bug-catcher plastic cage thingie, and they now have visual evidence that worms do, indeed, poop), and I said, "well, but EVERYTHING poops!" Then he came back with "except God, right?"

I think that he's probably correct And now that I think of it, this area probably falls under the "God is perfect" realm of Bible verses.

Just a funny little kid-thing I thought I'd share with you guys

if u ask me He even ****s. ok maybe that question will turn up in just a few years time

[Psycho Kitty]

religion has always been an empty box to me. interesting to look at but nothing ever is inside it no matter how deep i look. but i never really understood how there can be so many different kinds of christianity when they all insist there is only one way.

[GrayMouser]

2: Lucifer. He was not cast from Heaven because he questioned God, but because he sought to overthrow Him, to rise above and replace Him.

Just for the record, what are the actual Biblical references to the
role of Lucifer?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Well, that wasn't actually what I meant, Kitty. I was referring to what other people think that Christians believe. For instance (to give an extreme example), if you thought that we believed that a virgin must be sacrificed in Aztec fashion at midnight before every Sunday. Or, as in the examples above, you thought that Christians worship Mary. But I will say thank you for "toning it down". But I must say, I know what you mean. I've had some very nice religious experiences with Catholicism in the past, but when I went to a Mass the other day, it was very dull and empty. Without true faith, or true religion, it is naught but an empty shell, as you said. You probably aren't looking in the right places.

GrayMouser, I posted that in the Religious Knowledge Thread; let me go dig it up:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

[Psycho Kitty]

nah ive looked at all the boxes. they are all empty to me. so i assume you arent catholic. what band of christianity are you then?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I don't refer to the different denominations (is that what you mean?). There is true Christianity is every denomination, though false, hollow Christianity is far more common, unfortunately.

Nope, not Catholic, not any particular band: Non-denominational. Though I have been thinking about converting to Catholicism, and been doing research into that. I love the ritual, ceremony, and overall beauty of it. Though as with any branch, it is certainly hollow without a real basis or foundation, as I experienced last Sunday. The denomination or service isn't nearly as important as the actual core and center, and very highly faith.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
[B]Well, that wasn't actually what I meant, Kitty. I was referring to what other people think that Christians believe. For instance (to give an extreme example), if you thought that we believed that a virgin must be sacrificed in Aztec fashion at midnight before every Sunday. Or, as in the examples above, you thought that Christians worship Mary. But I will say thank you for "toning it down". But I must say, I know what you mean. I've had some very nice religious experiences with Catholicism in the past, but when I went to a Mass the other day, it was very dull and empty. Without true faith, or true religion, it is naught but an empty shell, as you said. You probably aren't looking in the right places.

That's unfortunate that Mass was dull that day...I know how that feels Ive experienced it a few times. It really depends on the priest celebrating it (therir personality is a key factor)...they must be able to really get in to what they are preaching...make it interesting. There are many good priests where I live, but there are also a few older ones who would prefer to not be parrish priests at all but work somewhere else in the diocese..but alas, there is a priest shortage

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yes, I was looking at the lovely decorations mostly that day. I think that rite and ceremony without a core or foundation are just empty and hollow shells; but with true faith and true "religion", they beautify it for me.

And I DEFINITELY agree with what you said about the priest; that applies to any pastor or preacher. I've heard some rather dull pastors in my day, but I've also heard some captivating ones.

[Millane]

someone said that Lucifer was cast from Heaven because he questioned God.

that was something you got from a satanist sight didnt you?
somethings that annoy me with christianity is a) lack of straight answers. b) everytime a talk about religion with a christian and something is just totally improbable they just say it wasnt meant to be taken literally etc etc.
umm just something that popped into my mind, there was that famous painting of people sitting round the table at a feast with God, all in chains. then a painting of the same picture but with Satan in Hell all feasting quite happily... How do you christians interpret them/opinions?
either way i wont beleive in anything to do with christianity until im dead and then i may beleive...

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Not true Satanist, but Modern Satanist, yes.

What do you mean exactly by "lack of straight answers"? As for the "b", did it ever cross your mind that they really believed that?

Regarding the paintings, I've never seen them, so I can't really say amythomg about them.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Hmm. . .I'd like to address that Lucifer as questioning vs. trying to overthrow thing as well: (note: as I've said before and as you probably all know, I'm not a Christian. However, I do have an interest in religion, including the various legends in the bible.) What I think about this is, well, it's all up to the way it is interpreted, right? Because the whole bible can be seen quite differently in the various ways it is interpreted. Often things are interpreted to best fit one's agenda, right? So the modern satanists would say that Lucifer was thrown out for questioning, of course. Anyway, just a thought. I'm definitely not trying to attack anyone's beliefs. Disclaimer, disclaimer, disclaimer. . .

Also, what do people think about the way religion (in general, as in, not just Christianity) affects events in history? Because, well, I'm a history major, and that's one of my primary interests. Perhaps will write my thesis about it, but fortunately I don't have to worry about that for a few more years But anyway, I think religion is one of the primary factors (along with, say, economics) that push events in history. What do people think? Just trying to start a discussion here, though I guess I haven't really posed a specific question, ne? Oh well.

One more religion thing. Though I have the feeling I'll have a lot more posts here. . .this is what I get for hanging out with religion majors. . .heh. . .another of my religion-centered interests concerns the exclusionary nature of certain religions. I've noticed that while the more common of world religions today are based around the idea that they are right and everyone else is wrong and their gods false. (yeah, I've brought this up before, so sue me. . .) Whereas in older religions, and I suppose some today, it was more centered around worshipping the specific gods of one's religion while not denying the very existance of the gods of others. Interesting, that. I wonder how this came to be, and how this has affected history, and, for yet another thing, what the effect the "many gods everywhere" vs. "one omnipotent, omnipresent god" has had on thinking, and did it lead to the sort of enlightenment thinking that caused the scientific revolution in Europe? And if this did have an effect on people's thinking, what was the difference between Catholocism and Protestantism that allowed this to happen?

. . .religion is so interesting. . .

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Sidenote: The Modern Satanists do not believe in Satan; they believe he is a myth. At least the part I read seemed to be written to insult and put down Christians/Christianity as much as possible, as was agreed by the person I know who was/is considering becoming an MS. The passage doesn't really seem to me to leave much room for interpretation that way, but anyway.

Oh, and another thing that the MS's said was that Modern Satanism was about (in part) accepting responsibility for one's own actions, rather than blaming "some sky fairy" on them. Free will, the ability to choose what to do, be it right or wrong, is a big part of Christianity, but an even bigger part is accountability for our deeds, which is why we believe that mankind needs a Saviour.

Well, obviously, the Roman Church had an enormous hand in politics, though I don't know that that can really be called true religion, as back in those days Christianity was pretty much a political tool.

This really applies to the second question (or was that a paragraph? ) as well. I don't think it was so much a difference between Protestantism and Catholicism as breaking away from the emptiness of the Dark Ages Church. Many of the "Protestants" of the day were in fact closer to the Catholics of today than they were to most Protestants.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Perhaps then it was the undermining of the influence of the church? Anyway, I'm going to have to look into that. . .

Also, seeing as the church, while a major political tool, is at least based on religion, and is from the religious aspect of society in origin, I personally count it as "religion" whether or not that was the primary focus of those involved at the time

[Arien the Maia]

Well, obviously, the Roman Church had an enormous hand in politics, though I don't know that that can really be called true religion, as back in those days Christianity was pretty much a political tool.

true true...the Roan church was more concernedwith politics...seeing as she owned land and such than the eastern Orthodox Church was...the Orthodox were controlled by the government whil the Roman Church did alot of controlling

This really applies to the second paragraph (or was that a paragraph? ) as well. I don't think it was so much a difference between Protestantism and Catholicism as breaking away from the emptiness of the Dark Ages Church. Many of the "Protestants" of the day were in fact closer to the Catholics of today than they were to most Protestants.

That's true....Henry VIII never considered himself a Protestant...he was an "English Catholic" as opposed to a "Roman Catholic"... he basically started another schism in the Church....like the Orthodox....it was his successors who had a hand in the converting most of England to Protestanism. The same goes for MArtin Luther...the only things that he didn't agree with the Catholic Church about was faith and good works and the Papacy....unlike today's Lutherans, Luther believed in the doctrine of transubstantiation as opposed to thhe later Lutheran belief of consubstantiation. He also had the same reverence for MAry as did the Catholics.