Capturing Tolkien's Vision vs. A Literal Interpretation

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Melko Belcha
Can you please tell me when you became the offical spokesmen for Tolkien fans? Did I miss some announcement from the Tolkien Society? ....Stop speaking for all the Tolkien fans out there ....

Here, here. I agree!

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I can't really speak for the man, but I wonder if PJ thought that either it made the Three Rings more sinister if they were given to them by Sauron. If so, he is mistaken. There is more peril in keeping them hidden from him.

Or perhaps these changes tie into some more serious changes that he has planned for RotK. *cringes* Say it isn't so.

When it comes to describing the rings, Peter Jackson's only crime is that he followed JRR Tolkien's lead. First let's look at Galadriel's movie quote again:

It began with the forging of the great rings. Three were given to the Elves, immortal, wisest and fairest of all beings. Seven to the Dwarf lords, great miners and craftsmen of the mountain halls. And nine, nine rings were gifted to the race of Men, who above all else, desire power. For within these rings was bound the strength and will to govern each race. But they were all of them deceived, for another ring was made.

First, there is nothing in that quote that says Sauron gave the three rings to the elves.

Second, if your response is, "b-b-but it's IMPLIED that he did" then you need to accuse Tolkien of the same thing because I realized reading FOTR this week that the movie's opening was simply paraphrasing Tolkien's classic poem, "Three rings for the elven kings under the sky..."

If you want to argue PJ got it wrong there, then you also must level the same criticism at Tolkien himself because the more appropriate language (based on your criticisms of PJ anyway) would be, "Three Rings BY the elven rings under the sky, seven for the dwarf lords in their halls of stone..."

I would like to publicly apologize to Peter Jackson for my lack of faith.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
When it comes to describing the rings, Peter Jackson's only crime is that he followed JRR Tolkien's lead. First let's look at Galadriel's movie quote again:First, there is nothing in that quote that says Sauron gave the three rings to the elves.

Sorry to burst your PJ-worshipping bubble but that was NOT Tolkien's intentions and if you or PJ had read any books further than FotR you'd see that he developed these races with certain qualities. The Elves needed NO Ring to govern their people. Neither you nor PJ are qualified to speak on behalf of JRRT's unwritten intentions, either. I'll assume that you've not read the books and spare you this time from my wrath, because, lucky you, I'm trying to be nice right now. Although, you make it very, very difficult. If you knew how much I was holding back right now, you'd piss yourself.

...."b-b-but it's IMPLIED that he did" ....because I realized reading FOTR this week that the movie's opening was simply paraphrasing Tolkien's classic poem, "Three rings for the elven kings under the sky..."

(Ah, so it is true, you've only just recently read FotR, and probably nothing else. It all makes sense now.)
I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but do you stutter in the real world? You do a lot of it in your posts, which I find a bit strange.
It was not implied by Tolkien, it was written by Tolkien!

Then if this is simply paraphrasing the poem in the beginning of the book, then it is true that PJ never read the story of the Rings. How sad to make a movie without doing your research first. All that money he spent, all that time he spent and to only have a substandard, incomplete story to show for it. *shakes head* So, sad.

I would never be so presumptuous as to criticize Tolkien for his work in perfection, nor to presume to be able write his story better than the master himself.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Ruinel
[B]I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but do you stutter in the real world? You do a lot of it in your posts, which I find a bit strange.

I think he just likes to make fun of people with handicaps...

How sad to make a movie without doing your research first. All that money he spent, all that time he spent and to only have a substandard, incomplete story to show for it. *shakes head* So, sad.

[Jack-Pallace]Life is...sad.[/Jack-Pallance]

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Sorry to burst your PJ-worshipping bubble but that was NOT Tolkien's intentions and if you or PJ had read any books further than FotR you'd see that he developed these races with certain qualities ... It was not implied by Tolkien, it was written by Tolkien!

Then if this is simply paraphrasing the poem in the beginning of the book, then it is true that PJ never read the story of the Rings.

The logic of your arguement escapes me. It's probably because I'm a simple-minded stutterer. How can you jump to the bizarre conclusion that PJ's use of the poem at the beginning of FOTR means he didn't read the story? You are an intelligent person who has presented strong arguements for your positions in the past; you don't need to resort to silly statements like the one above.

Jackson introduced the concept of the rings by using the same short-hand intro that Tolkien used himself. A movie doesn't have all day to detail everything out like a book can. Jackson wasn't interested in outlining the whole history of the making of the rings because it had no real relevance to the story he was telling. This has nothing to do with Jackson's research and everything to do with understanding what the focus of the story is when making a film.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
The logic of your arguement escapes me. It's probably because I'm a simple-minded stutterer.

How can you jump to the bizarre conclusion that PJ's use of the poem at the beginning of FOTR means he didn't read the story? .... Jackson introduced the concept of the rings by using the same short-hand intro that Tolkien used himself.... bla, bla, bla... no relevance to the story.

Because the poem is not the full history of the Rings.

You will not understand this nor it's relevance until you read LotR in its entirety. And if by some miracle, you are struck hard by the beautiful words of Tolkien and are encouraged and hunger for more, you will read other stories which will enlighten your mind to the fullness of his mastery of the pen and you will bow low and humble in your error to judge and criticize him and place PJ, a Hollywood lackey, over him.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Ruinel
...the poem is not the full history of the Rings.

The movie's prologue isn't either. It's just enough for the casual viewer to understand what's going on. If it enthralls you and you want to learn more, then Tolkien's books are there for you to immerse yourself in all the wonderous background lore.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Not to mention the actual story.

Something that I've been puzzling over for some time, is why Jackson didn't use the Ring-rhyme?

[Melko Belcha]

Off-topic

BB, How are we supposed to believe you are a Tolkien fan and have knowledge of the books when you never post anything in the book threads, but only the movie threads? Call me crazy but if you were a Tolkien fan I am sure you would have some imput on the discussions of the books. Please tell us unenlightened ones why this is? I am very curious.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Melko Belcha
BB, How are we supposed to believe you are a Tolkien fan and have knowledge of the books when you never post anything in the book threads, but only the movie threads? Call me crazy but if you were a Tolkien fan I am sure you would have some imput on the discussions of the books. Please tell us unenlightened ones why this is? I am very curious.

I've been a book fan for many, many years. I've talked about the books ever since I first read them. The movies are brand new and exciting. Based on the number of posts to both forums, it would appear that I'm not alone in wanting to post here rather than there.

The strange thing about your question -- and the way some of you respond to my posts here -- is that you make it sound like there is an intense competition going on between the movies and the films. It's like if you dare to show a love for the movies then you are being disloyal to Tolkien and not a TRUE fan. Seems to me that if there should be a questioning of motives or a need for some psychoanalysis, perhaps you book Purists should look in the mirror.

Question asked, question answered - now back on-topic.

[Lizra]

I very much missed having Frodo say "O Elbereth! Gilthoniel! at Weathertop. Just those words would have been better than the grimaces and groans he made. I missed it.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
The movie's prologue isn't either. It's just enough for the casual viewer to understand what's going on. If it enthralls you and you want to learn more, then Tolkien's books are there for you to immerse yourself in all the wonderous background lore.

But that's the point, it isn't enough. I've spoken to people who have never read the books and only seen the movie. They believe from that short description of the history of the Rings that Sauron gave the Rings to the Elves. Also, they don't understand why Galadriel keeps her ring unless she's just using it for some magical power. They have no idea that these rings are secret and that sharing that information with Frodo was special. They assume that everyone in ME knows that she has this Ring.

The movie goers who do not read the books assume that PJ has told the story as it was written by Tolkien, when in fact he has altered this story so much that much of it is some other story and not Tolkien's original story.

BB, you call us 'Book Purists'. I don't know whether or not you mean it as an insult. If the love of Tolkien's works makes me a 'Book Purist', then so be it. My beef with PJ is that if he had intended to bring this great work to the screen, he fell short of it by caving under Hollywood's pressure (or perhaps this was his own design, I don't know) to incorporate the tried and true formula of movie making into LotR, altering the story to fit their design.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
1) The strange thing about your question -- and the way some of you respond to my posts here -- is that you make it sound like there is an intense competition going on between the movies and the films. 2) It's like if you dare to show a love for the movies then you are being disloyal to Tolkien and not a TRUE fan. 3)Seems to me that if there should be a questioning of motives or a need for some psychoanalysis, perhaps you book Purists should look in the mirror.

1) That depends on the definition your using for "competition".
2) -sigh- Geez, you just flat out don't read my posts, do you?
3) Um...what's that about? Other than your trademark random personal attack, of course.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
3) Um...what's that about? Other than your trademark random personal attack, of course.

{Scene: Gwai and Ruinel are building bookshelves in Gwai's garage. Gwai is hammering nails into the wood.}
Ruinel: "Wow, Gwai, you hit the nail right on the head."

[Sheeana]

Whoah, deja vu...

[Baby-K]

Every time I think of posting anything in this thread I get disgusted at the flaming going on........pity 'cos it's an interesting read otherwise. Maybe I will give my views one day when I feel like being insulted for having them

[Ruinel]

Some of it is light hearted ribbing, and some of it is not. But yes, some of it is personal attacks. Sorry you are put off.

[Baby-K]

It's not just this thread - most of the movie threads & even some of the book threads seem affected, which is what is making me keep my mouth shut. I'm by no means a great Tolkien scholar, but I do enjoy his work, however I refuse to be made to feel like an imbicile for not sharing someone's views. And a few of the threads, 'specially in the books forum seem a bit elitist, so I don't feel quite comfortable posting my opinions because I have seen a few people being 'shot down' & I'm not into self-inflicted derision. I do still enjoy reading them though, there are some really interesting views & opinions being shared. Not to worry though, there are still a few threads that have not become war zones, if I see any that catch my eye I'll post something there.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Baby-K
Not to worry though, there are still a few threads that have not become war zones, if I see any that catch my eye I'll post something there.

*reads some of the heated posts here* yeah, it's been quite a heated discussion. And your description as 'war zone' isn't far from the truth.
Too bad, though, I would have liked to have read your views on the subject.

[bropous]

How many angels CAN dance on the head of a Balrog?

The correct answer is SEVEN.

If you gave any other answer, you are either an idiot, a moron, have never read the books, worship the movie, deserve derision and scorn, should be shunned, are worth nothing, have no value, and nowhere in life nor in death will you demonstrate any positive quality, even accidentally. You are WRONG, and therefore, DUMB.

Sound familiar?

Mein Gott, is there NOTHING more deserving of discussion than this tired old beaten dead horse? Has ANYTHING been said in the last TEN pages that had not been said, said again, chewed over, spat out and redigested in pages 1-15??????

Oh, that's right. New and inventive permutations on the ad hominem. I KNEW there was a purpose to this.

It just gets boring. Nothing new, no REAL new wrinkle, just re-examinations of one's own navel and self-praise for the superiority of "innies" versus "outies". Sophistry, pure and simple.

And does ANY of this advance understanding of either Tolkien's books or Jackson's films? I challenge all and sundry to provide evidence that it has.

Look around, folks, this thread has all the ambiance of an infinite number of monkeys banging away at an infinite number of typewriters and standing around waiting for the first copy of "Hamlet" to spill out, typo-free, from the simian copy production staff.

Solution? Shake hands, go off into the ether, and realize that no one is very likely to convince anyone else of anything.

Frankly, some folks might want to stop what they are doing before they go blind.....(hint hint)

BoP, glad to see you're still around, ya little contrarian you! Great disguise...

[Where's that red lipstick......Lizra?]