11-27-2006, 04:30 PM | #661 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Just a quickie (darn all these annoying paperwork things related to moving to Arizona!) - Quote:
Lief - of course I don't mind! *bops Lief on the head with his saber* (how's that going, btw?) Just because I've been gone awhile doesn't mean I've changed into some annoying thread Nazi!!! Looks like you saved me the trouble of a long answer - you had a nice post on what I was going to say! Now I can go off and sign those escrow papers - 'bye, all! I'll be back hopefully tomorrow with some more time. And I think the literal days thing is likely, but I'm not bound to it.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-27-2006, 10:53 PM | #662 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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11-27-2006, 11:17 PM | #663 | ||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-28-2006, 02:04 AM | #664 |
Entmoot Secretary of the Treasury
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Subscribing...
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11-29-2006, 05:37 PM | #665 | ||||||||||||
Hobbit
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1. The Temple was destroyed and the Jews scattered in AD 70. Anybody still alive who witnessed the crucifixion of Jesus was run out of the city. 2. Refutations could easily be explained by "you didn't actually see Jesus perform these miracles, you weren't there". Jesus healed the poor and destitute, and in the Empire, those people were almost universally illiterate. Life expectancy was also lower- you could expect to live 30-40 years, then you were lucky for any more. In 60, most everyone who was old enough to know about Jesus was dead or quite old, and the writers of the Gospels wrote based on oral tradition. That makes it the beginning of a telephone game, and if you're well disposed already...it's not hard to convince you. Finally, this wasn't the present day, where if you wrote a good book, people would see it far and wide and Penguin would publish it. The Gospels, though put down then, were conveyed through speeches to people who had no idea by people who claimed to. With regard to any living Jews who knew and could read and could refute...most of the things said about his life were historical. What he said, who he was, what he did non-supernaturally were never in question. The only question I could see the Jews having was his ability to heal the sick, and we've heard from nobody except the Gospel writers about that. Odds are, we never will, because the early Church was quite ruthless in suppressing dissent (I'm sure the Arians and Pelagians wrote something, didn't they?) Quote:
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EDIT- Re. Rian- How would they fit, then? There is no way in the world that two of every species of land animal would have survived on something that small...it had to be something different. Ability to reproduce the same organism is a key part of that, and without it you'd have mass extinction. On the other point, you and I will inevitably disagree here, but my level of faith is dependent on my level of provable evidence. If I have a lot, then ok. God, in my mind, exists somehow, I believe there's got to be some kind of unexplainable beginning, but I'm not quite sure I would say that I believe most of the Bible. I guess I'm more of a skeptic... Re. Gwaimir - I have checked that, and you are correct. Nicaea tried to standardize dogma, not the Bible. The Vulgate was put together by Jerome roughly ca. 400, and the "final" Bible was the Council of Trent. With regard to St. Peter, if I was trying to put together a point of divinity, and my fellow disciple and friend wrote something, I'd do my best to help him out, too. That doesn't say much with regard to the Bible per se, because most of the relevant books were written after both of their deaths. Either way, though, the point I was trying to make (that Scripture was not Scripture to all interested parties until well after the events) stands whether it was Nicaea or Trent or any Church Council.
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University of Maryland Class of 2007 Last edited by Aquilonis : 11-29-2006 at 05:48 PM. |
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11-29-2006, 05:43 PM | #666 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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Just one thing about that Selassie thingamabob, Aquinolas: they are in a probability just trying to get some attention, seeing as how worldwide Jesus has become
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11-29-2006, 05:53 PM | #667 |
Hobbit
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Maybe they are, maybe they're not....the Bahai operate on the same principle, use that example if you don't like the Selassie one, haha
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University of Maryland Class of 2007 |
11-29-2006, 06:18 PM | #668 |
Salt Miner
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Time to stop? Reconsider? Change directions in this thread?
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11-29-2006, 06:21 PM | #669 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide |
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11-30-2006, 12:49 AM | #670 |
Entmoot Secretary of the Treasury
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See, you forget that is referring to reply number 666, when it is, in fact, post number 667.
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11-30-2006, 12:03 PM | #671 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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Oh dear, I hadn't noticed!
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11-30-2006, 04:06 PM | #672 | |||||||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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They were very strict and rigorous in what scriptures they accepted as scriptures. They chose on the pattern of, "If in doubt, throw it out," and thus the remaining texts (which had strong backing from the Early Church, unlike the Apocryphal texts) have been shown repeatedly by corroboration from other historical documentation, as well as archaelogical evidence, to be highly accurate. Quote:
For instance, there is also the miraculous feeding of the 5,000, and the feeding of the 4,000, each of which miracles were witnessed by thousands of people. There is also the fact that he performed miraculous healings and demon banishings all over the place, which there actually is strong historical evidence for from highly valuable outside sources as well. You see, we have texts from the Pharisees at the time. They wrote that Jesus was a sorcerer who performed "black magic." The Pharisees had every reason to deny Jesus' miracles if they could. Instead, however, they, his staunchest critics, were forced to admit that he was doing astounding things. They just attributed it to the devil, as the scripture confirms also, in which his enemies declared, "Your miracles come from Beelzebub!" Quote:
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It's just like Jesus' birth being heralded by angels that were witnessed by a group of shepherds . Highly unreliable in that culture, and not impressive at all. Quote:
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I'll respond to the rest of your post soon.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-30-2006 at 04:08 PM. |
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11-30-2006, 04:33 PM | #673 | |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. |
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11-30-2006, 05:01 PM | #674 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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The prophet muhammad also had many miracles attributed to him that were witnessed by thousands.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
11-30-2006, 05:44 PM | #675 | |||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-30-2006, 06:19 PM | #676 | ||
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 11-30-2006 at 06:22 PM. |
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11-30-2006, 06:35 PM | #677 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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11-30-2006, 06:37 PM | #678 |
Quasi Evil
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And dont forget Franco Harris!
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
11-30-2006, 07:23 PM | #679 | |||||||
Elf Lord
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But the reason that I disagree with your claim that bad communications and ignorance of the people of the time could be reasons for the disciples' being successful, I have already stated. The Pharisees were breathing down the disciples' necks (and beating their backs with rods) for giving the message they were, and they would have seized upon any inaccuracy. Plus, thousands of people had witnessed for themselves the truth or falsehood of what the disciples were saying. In view of these things, they couldn't plausibly have been making it up. Quote:
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"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him." And as you point out, the Holy Spirit was with Peter as he gave his message. 3,000 people, according to verse 41, became Christians that day. Acts 5:16 says crowds also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem. There was a Christian community in Damascus and in Samaria. The disciples preached to the Jews of Cyrene, Alexandria, and those of the provinces of Cicilia and Asia (6:9). Those are the scriptures involving the extent of their preaching which have come up to me so far, as I check, and their preaching clearly was widespread in Israel. Quote:
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There are places in the scripture where Jesus performed miracles in the presence of the Pharisees, though you are right that there is one place where he denied them a sign.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-30-2006, 09:22 PM | #680 | |||||
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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Claiming your enemies were practicing dark magic was a pretty common way of denouncing them in those days. Quote:
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 11-30-2006 at 09:33 PM. |
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