Tolkien's Languages

[Valandil]

Originally posted by cian
The lists includes both Quenya and Sindarin. Appendix A footnotes that after Earendur the Kings no longer took names in High-elven (Quenya) form (for example) -- see also regarding High-elven names after the mention of Mardil Voronwe (Steward).

Appendix F relates that the name Nimrodel (the meaning of which has already been posted, as published in UT) is probably of Silvan origin, adapted to Sindarin.

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Hah... it was right there in front of me! Thanks cian... though I guess I might've taken later names to possibly be Westron - but I'll take it from what you say that they're Sindarin.

[cian]

Of possible interest, it might be noted that Tarcil appears as a name in the Northern Line -- and that tark 'man of Gondor', was a debased form of tarkil, a Quenya word used in Westron for one of Númenórean descent.

Expert David Salo offers a few general remarks:

Faramir is originally a Quenya name; it occurs as the name of the brother of Artamir (which is Quenya for "noble jewel" without argument), son of Ondoher, King of Gondor. The Kings of Gondor and their families all used Quenya names. The Stewards of Gondor typically used Sindarin names, or names of Sindarin form. Denethor is a Green-elvish name, but since it appears in Sindarin histories, and does not violate Sindarin phonological rules, could be used easily as if it were a Sindarin name. Faramir, likewise, is "Sindarin-like" in style; although if such a name were actually to have been formed, it would necessarily have been pronounced FarAmir, with stress on the second syllable, and could have been spelled Farammir. Boromir is obviously not Quenya, but as Tolkien points out it is a "mixed form". ~David Salo

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[Valandil]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cian
[B]Of possible interest, it might be noted that Tarcil appears as a name in the Northern Line -- and that tark 'man of Gondor', was a debased form of tarkil, a Quenya word used in Westron for one of Númenórean descent.

Interesting... both that a King of Arnor would have a name based on 'Man of Gondor'... unless 'tark' had dual useage. (?) Or maybe King Tarcil had some other Gondorian connection (unless you're saying his name came from the Quenya 'tarkil' - I'd guess you are, come to think of it, since he was among those Kings of Arnor who still took Quenya names... and I know JRRT used that spelling (Tarkil) for the King in his earlier versions, as shown in PoME).

Also - I recall the orcs who captured Frodo referring to a 'tark'... I hadn't known what that was before.

[cian]

Right, currently at Ardalambion Helge offers Tarcil 'High-man'. The word tarcil was adopted into Westron, used to refer to a person of N. descent. The debased form tark came to refer to a 'man of Gondor'.

David Salo suggests Tar-khild-, and note Elvish root KHIL- 'follow' and the form hildi 'followers = mortal men'. David offers tarkil as 'high man' or 'royal man'.

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[Valandil]

Interesting still...

In the same general vein, at some point, a light bulb came on and I noticed the similarity between: Ithil (for Minas Ithil and Ithilien) and Isil of Isildur (who built Minas Ithil and ruled in Ithilien) and Anor (for Minas Anor and Anorien) and Anar of Anarion (who of course, built Minas Anor and ruled in Anorien). Now, I know that ithil = moon and anor = sun... I take it that the "Isil..." and "Anar..." are either derived from those or vice-versa... correct? Is it the former? Are the names of Elendil's two sons Quenya, as the other High Kings at Arnor and Kings of Gondor... or are those two names alone Sindarin?

[cian]

Isildur and Anárion are Quenya, meaning 'Moon-servant' and probably 'Sun-son'. David Salo comments, on the names, citing from Tolkien first:

"In his "Guide to the Names in The Lord of the Rings" (A Tolkien Compass, p. 192) Tolkien wrote:

'Sunlending This is a translation into the language of Rohan of Anórien, the name of the land immediately attached to Minas Anor (originally including that city and inhabited country as far as the River Erui). It is thus 'heraldic' rather than climatic, and related to the heraldic names of Elendil's sons Anárion and Isildur, being the counterpart of Ithilien.'

We read in the essay "Of the Rings of Power ..." in The Silmarillion that "Other strong places [the Numenoreans] built also upon either hand [of Osgiliath]: Minas Ithil, the Tower of the Rising Moon, eastward upon a shoulder of the Mountains of Shadow as a threat to Mordor; and to the westward Minas Anor, the Tower of the Setting Sun, at the feet of Mount Mindolluin, as a shield against the wild men of the Dales. Minas Ithil was the house of Isildur, and in Minas Anor the house of Anárion ..."

As I read this, when Isildur and Anárion entered the Anduin valley, they built fortress-cities which they (or their followers) named after them: Minas Ithil, the Castle of Isil(dur), because that was Isildur's house; and Minas Anor, the Castle of Anar(ion), because Anárion's house was there; and at a later date, the fiefs of which these were the chief cities came to be known as Ithilien "land of (Minas) Ithil" and Anórien "land of (Minas) Anor". Of course throughout this time the meanings "moon" and "sun" for ithil and anor would never have been forgotten, while the origins of the names themselves might have become confused; but under no circumstance should it be presumed that the names Ithilien and Anórien were held to compare these respective fiefs to the physical Moon and Sun, or to suggest some peculiar connection or influence between the Moon and Ithilien, or the Sun and Anórien." ~David Salo

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[Valandil]

Yes, but I was wondering about the transference of the 'th' in Ithil to 's' in Isil... and the second 'a' in 'Anar' to the 'o' in 'Anor'... or is there no significance whatsoever?

[cian]

We're looking at two different languages here, both of which hail from a common ancestor language. Sindarin Anor for example, arguably hails from older *anár > *anaur > anor. Anárion is Quenya, but Minas Anor is Sindarin, and so also the place-names Anórien and Ithilien (Quenya Isil).

Helge Fauskanger also explains: "the relevant root is NAR (#1), meaning "flame, fire". The primitive word anár- prefixes the stem-vowel, producing a kind of "intensive" form. So anár- etymologically refers to some kind of "great flame". This produces Quenya Anar and Sindarin Anor (for older Anaur)."

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[Valandil]

Originally posted by cian
We're looking at two different languages here, both of which hail from a common ancestor language. Sindarin Anor for example, arguably hails from older *anár > *anaur > anor. Anárion is Quenya, but Minas Anor is Sindarin, and so also the place-names Anórien and Ithilien (Quenya Isil).

Helge Fauskanger also explains: "the relevant root is NAR (#1), meaning "flame, fire". The primitive word anár- prefixes the stem-vowel, producing a kind of "intensive" form. So anár- etymologically refers to some kind of "great flame". This produces Quenya Anar and Sindarin Anor (for older Anaur)."

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Enlightening!

Seriously, thank you. That addresses what I was trying to ask... so I now see that the 'isil' and 'anar' from the personal names are Quenya and the 'ithil' and 'anor' from the place names are Sindarin... I just didn't know which was which.

[Beor]

Well, Ruinel, I am here, and I do need help, so if you would, please, help . Where should I start (probably somewhere north-east of here, maybe in...Minnesota, where my accent comes from )?

Oh, and do you speak Quenya or Sindarin? And does it matter (I believe it does, however I am not well versed in any language skills, other than speaking English, and a little Deutsch)?

[Ruinel]

Quetin Quenya lambe.
(I speak Quenya tongue.)

You should start by going to Ardalambion.com
find the "course" link and go through it, it will be long, but worth it. There are wordlists also, those will help. But without knowing how to pluralize something or put words together, they won't be of much help.

[Ruinel]

This thread is growing... this is good.

Do either Cian or Valandil speak Elvish?

[Lalaith_Elf]

Hey Runiel - since your being all nice and helping Beor to learn Elvish, do you feel like taking on another eager student? Please.

[Nerdanel]

I'm not sure this is the right thread to ask this in, but could someone please answer my question? I'd be very happy.

What is 'The Wise' in Quenya (and Sindarin)?

Thank you.

[Aden]

I think it is " I saira" (or saila it's the same thing they are both used) but you may not use the article ( to give emphasis) " Saira"

[Elvengirl]

Ok, does anyone know the Elvish word for "hello"? I was told that it is "veldui", but I've been wondering if that is true. If looked in Elvish translation books and a few other places, but there is no mention of the word "hello".

[Falagar]

'Vedui' means 'greetings' if I'm not much mistaken (Sindarin's never been my field anyway ). For Quenya 'aiya', 'hail', will suffice.

[Elvengirl]

ok good!
thanks Falagar

[cian]

Vedui is much more likely to be a mutated form of medui meaning 'last' (note Arvedui).

The 'Grey Company Elven' roleplayers (who do not accurately represent Tolkien's Elvish languages) may use it for 'greetings', apparently because the word appears within a greeting.

Note the current commentary from Ardalambion:

'Glorfindel's greeting to Aragorn: Ai na vedui Dúnadan! Mae govannen! (LotR1/I ch. 12). The first words are not translated, but probably mean *"Ah, at last, Westman!" Mae govannen means "well met" (Letters:308).' ~Helge Fauskanger

And commentary from expert David Salo:

na vedui "at last" < medui

'Here we see the same sorts of changes as with i-; no change occurs with the unlenitable th- in thôn. Here again the lenition is transparent, as na ends in a vowel.' ~D.S.

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[Elvengirl]

hmm what book would I be able to find this out from?