11-24-2004, 01:11 PM | #661 | |||
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People say heaven exists, but not in the physical world. It is a logical belief that's impossible to prove IMO. Part of the belief is that only dead people can see heaven, so the living shouldn't be able to see heaven.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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11-24-2004, 01:16 PM | #662 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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Location: Portland, OR
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Rian, I saw your answer. Thanks. Sorry that I didn't understand the format. I had asked the question of someone who wasn't on the hot seat. I'll pay closer attention in the future.
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11-24-2004, 01:19 PM | #663 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I really think Lewis says it well. First, his comment (and I found the actual quote - I had the right idea, but some wrong words) (and this was written over 60 years ago, and in Britain - "tolerable" has the sense of "not entirely yucky") - "I am not going to try to prove the doctrine tolerable. Let us make no mistake; it is not tolerable. But I think the doctrine can be shown to be moral, by a critique of the objections ordinarily made, or felt, against it." And the second goes something like this : "perfect love will offer every possible chance; perfect knowledge knows when it is of no more use to offer any chances." And another : Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-24-2004 at 01:36 PM. |
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11-24-2004, 01:24 PM | #664 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-24-2004, 01:26 PM | #665 | |||
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*fails* What did you think of my one Ri? Mind if I call you Ri?
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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11-24-2004, 01:30 PM | #666 |
Elf Lord
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Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
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Nurv,
"I'm sure there are some churches that are hypocritical, but just to stick up for my own church, we're denominational (Anglican), but we're not hypocrites! The main messages in our church are love, acceptance, and community. We don't contradict these things. Or apologize about the Bible. Why would you do that anyway? " Not to put too fine a point on it, the Anglican Church in Canada and the Episcopal Church in the USA are two of the most hypocritical institutions in Church history. They have abdicated the historic moral teaching of 2000+ years of Christian historry and 4000+ plus years of Jewish history in favor of postmodernism. They sign the Articles of Unity and flout them openly. Then they have the audacity to condemn the faithful Anglican Communion members for holding their feet to the doctrine and signatures. Just thought another Anglican perspective was in order for that rose-glassed view of yours and knew you could take it!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
11-24-2004, 01:30 PM | #667 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-24-2004, 01:40 PM | #668 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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EDIT - nevermind - incomplete post.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-24-2004 at 01:41 PM. |
11-24-2004, 03:05 PM | #669 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Location: Reality
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the point is, there are some things we know exist, and some we speculate about... an important distinction when extrapolating other "things" based upon the existance of something
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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11-24-2004, 03:14 PM | #670 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Another question to add. Do you believe someone can repent in hell and if so will they then go to heaven?
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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11-24-2004, 03:21 PM | #671 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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another point by example... a kind and devoute buddist lives his entire life in best accordance with the teachings of Siddartha Gautama... who, in the classic sense is not a "deity" but a philosopher/ruler who lived around 500 B.C.... and whose teachings of compassion and spirituality are not terribly dissimilar to the basic tenants of christianity... irregardless of how this individual lived his life, as i understand it, this person would go to hell because he never acknowledged the "christian god"... to me this says that the "christian god" isn't really concerned at all about what type of person you are, but about whether or not you choose to worship him... i cannot accept a god with this kind of attitude
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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11-24-2004, 03:34 PM | #672 | ||
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Not all Christians believe that. In fact, I think it's only Catholicism, and not all Catholics even believe that.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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11-24-2004, 03:58 PM | #673 | ||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-24-2004 at 04:02 PM. |
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11-24-2004, 04:16 PM | #674 | |
Elf Lord
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I do notice now that you mention "an eternal" as you describe hell. As the hell I believe in does not include punishment for eternity but punishment in eternity, or that denies them eternity, I suppose your objection doesn't completely apply to my answer.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-24-2004, 04:18 PM | #675 | ||
Marshal of the Eastmark
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11-24-2004, 04:19 PM | #676 | |
Elf Lord
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R*an, I sent a post last night that was in the middle of your steady stream of long posts, so it got buried. I'm going to repost it now:
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I suppose people form heresies right from the clearly expressed words of the Bible also, simply because of flawed human nature. I'm still curious though, how good the discernment can be that is gained without prior knowledge of Christianity. Can you offer me any examples though of non-Christians who have been led to wonderful correct conclusions about God because of looking at nature?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-24-2004, 05:03 PM | #677 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I did see your post, Lief, but I"m trying to do a FIFO-type queue here (first-in, first-out)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-24-2004, 05:05 PM | #678 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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and i also appreciate lief's pov... it's perfectly valid that god... Quote:
i don't necessarily see it as malicious, but not quite benevolent either and again, it seems to place "accepting god" above all else... where i would put "being a good person" as more prominent
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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11-24-2004, 05:12 PM | #679 | |
Elf Lord
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It's not arrogant to ask why. Asking why is fine. Believing that there can't be any good reason for God doing this is arrogant, but wondering why he did it is not.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-24-2004, 05:22 PM | #680 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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i think that if you live by all the ways that one would consider "good" (i.e. golden rule, etc.)... for all intents and purposes, you are a good person and, on the flipside, if your a generally "bad" person, but repent and accept god in the end, you were still a pretty bad person of course, this is only my pov... and not agreeing with it certainly does not make anyone a "bad" person in my eyes
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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