Theological Opinions

[Nurvingiel]

Inked: I can't read apparently. But in my defence, how was I supposed to know PB = Prayerbook? I've never talked about religion using net abbreviations before.

Lief: I think in my case, the seed has fallen upon rocky soil. At the point in my life when I'm mature and thoughtful enough to be more dedicated to Christianity, and when my mind is open to all the questions of Christianity and Jesus' teachings, I'm also doing a difficult undergraduate degree, dealing with depression, having a long-distance relationship of four years and counting, and trying not to fail at any of them.

Some seeds can remain viable for up to 200 years. They remain dormant in seedbeds until the conditions are right for germination. I think Jesus' word can last your lifetime and germinate, to further the analogy, whenever the person is ready.

So... maybe when I'm retired. I have picked a really busy career! I will try to make time for Jesus before retirement though.

Maybe there will be a season in Forestry that has less work than the others. (Can't think of any off the top of my head though.) Or maybe the Bible will be a new hobby for me, superceding reading so that I have time for it. Or maybe something will light a fire under my butt and I will actively seek out Jesus. Either way, I'll find Him eventually. (Or not. But I have a feeling that deep down, there lurks a thoughtful and dedicated Christian.)

[Lief Erikson]

Nurvi, I have a few things to respond. I may somewhat be able to understand what you're talking about, though of course I'm in a different situation than you. In my most recent college semester, I was taking five courses, eighteen units worth of work. The limit for my college is nineteen, so I was one unit short of the maximum workload allowed. Three of the courses were honors. So I was busier than ever. At that time, there were some days when I just didn't have time for devotions. I prayed on the walk over to and back from my college many days, and frequently between classes (when I wasn't studying). Sometimes I heard responses from God during my prayers. Sometimes events would take on a symbolic twist or I would hear a word through nature or through other means. So God was there, even though I didn't always have time for much of a meeting.

God's presence in my college semester was the only thing that saw me through it. In one class in which I didn't have much time to prepare, he'd just open up time for me when it was desperately needed. At times of lack of discipline, he opened my eyes to my situation again and saw me through the coming weeks. There were occasions where I would definitely have slipped on my own, if not for divine protection. Relying on God saw me through the semester, and in the final result for my five courses, I got four As and one B. Because Jesus was so good .

In saying this, I'm not trying to claim that I'm a superb student . I try, but trying only can achieve part of what is needed. Prayer was central to my recent success. As Jesus said, "If you, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him?"

You are right that there is a cost to be paid, for choosing to follow Christ. Christ said that people must be willing to give up everything for him. He must come before everything and everyone, including family, friends, finances, education, everything. That doesn't mean that going to church or paying tithe must come before everyone. Loving and following Christ should. In the scripture, Jesus made a good point about this. "Whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it. What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self?"

Jesus also said, "my yoke is easy and my burden is light." He is so good and wise. It's very hard to give up control of our lives to him, because we like having control ourselves. However, God's ways are far better than ours, and he always has our best interests at heart. He's not a tyrant. It's just mind-blowing to have God taking special interest in each person, interacting with his followers and with history's events, loving humanity with all his heart. It's wonderful to experience knowing him, so I very much want you to have that as well.

EDIT: Plus, knowing him brings eternal life.

[inked]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Inked: I can't read apparently. But in my defence, how was I supposed to know PB = Prayerbook? I've never talked about religion using net abbreviations before.

Lief: I think in my case, the seed has fallen upon rocky soil. At the point in my life when I'm mature and thoughtful enough to be more dedicated to Christianity, and when my mind is open to all the questions of Christianity and Jesus' teachings, I'm also doing a difficult undergraduate degree, dealing with depression, having a long-distance relationship of four years and counting, and trying not to fail at any of them.

Some seeds can remain viable for up to 200 years. They remain dormant in seedbeds until the conditions are right for germination. I think Jesus' word can last your lifetime and germinate, to further the analogy, whenever the person is ready.

So... maybe when I'm retired. I have picked a really busy career! I will try to make time for Jesus before retirement though.

Maybe there will be a season in Forestry that has less work than the others. (Can't think of any off the top of my head though.) Or maybe the Bible will be a new hobby for me, superceding reading so that I have time for it. Or maybe something will light a fire under my butt and I will actively seek out Jesus. Either way, I'll find Him eventually. (Or not. But I have a feeling that deep down, there lurks a thoughtful and dedicated Christian.)

Nurv,

You can have a life of joy in the midst of business! Why put off until some unspecified future what can be yours today? All you need do is ask to obtain, seek to find, knock to have it opened!

See Lief's comment above.

[Rían]

as CS Lewis says, we're far too easily satisfied - we're content to splash in mud puddles when we're offered a trip to the seashore ...

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by inked

Nurv,

You can have a life of joy in the midst of business! Why put off until some unspecified future what can be yours today? All you need do is ask to obtain, seek to find, knock to have it opened!

See Lief's comment above.

I dunno, that sounds like a lot of work. I don't mind work, but I have enough already.

I would also enjoy this work, but ^.

I'm just not feeling it. I think that's okay though. I have all these questions, but I'm not too pressed to have them answered. Some of them probably can't be answered, and that's okay too.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

edit in from discrimination thread: reply to BJ -
No one is claiming that Jesus never taught the Tao. He did. He in fact was its origin and fulfillment. That wise men have seen the light acknowledges the existence of the light. A point I have been at some pains to make for two years and you to avoid.

The issue here is that Jesus made exclusive claims about His person that will not allow one to merely class Him as a great teacher. Great teachers do not claim Godhood (that is, I believe, your point), but Jesus did. He did not mean to leave us the option to bypass Him by that route. "I and the Father are One" in the context of the Shema, "Hear, O Israel, YHWH our God is One YHWH" can only mean a claim to be YHWH.

but many wise men, and even some christians, do not place such importance on whether or not jesus was actually the son of god or just a great teacher... some do not even find it necessary to interpret the bible literally, or to discount the possibility of editorializing but it's authors

That wise men have seen the light acknowledges the existence of the light. A point I have been at some pains to make for two years and you to avoid.

i don't think i'm trying to avoid anything... i have no problem with you interpreting the bible the way you do... the only thing i can not understand is the inability to acknowledge that others take different, yet, to them, equally valid interpretations

you see this in the many different christian denominations around the world... belief systems that share 95 to 99% with one another, yet seem to dwell the most on that 1-5% worth of difference

and even if you extend it to non-christian belief systems, there is so much in common if you look at the concepts instead of the details, that it seems to me that you are building up walls where they simply don't need to be

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

but many wise men, and even some christians, do not place such importance on whether or not jesus was actually the son of god or just a great teacher...

Hmm ... *ponders*


Well, one thing that immediately comes to mind is that if a person thinks that Jesus is NOT the son of God, then that person must admit that Jesus lies. And that has several ramifications ...

[Spock]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Hmm ... *ponders*


Well, one thing that immediately comes to mind is that if a person thinks that Jesus is NOT the son of God, then that person must admit that Jesus lies. And that has several ramifications ...

WHY? Your presuming someone from that time period could not tell the truth all the time?

[inked]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

but many wise men, and even some christians, do not place such importance on whether or not jesus was actually the son of god or just a great teacher... some do not even find it necessary to interpret the bible literally, or to discount the possibility of editorializing but it's authors



i don't think i'm trying to avoid anything... i have no problem with you interpreting the bible the way you do... the only thing i can not understand is the inability to acknowledge that others take different, yet, to them, equally valid interpretations

you see this in the many different christian denominations around the world... belief systems that share 95 to 99% with one another, yet seem to dwell the most on that 1-5% worth of difference

and even if you extend it to non-christian belief systems, there is so much in common if you look at the concepts instead of the details, that it seems to me that you are building up walls where they simply don't need to be

My point was that the claims for Jesus were made by Jesus and proclaimed to have been exactly what He said for the last 2000 years by the Church. It is not a private opinion. The persons you cite have "private opinions" at variance with history and current claims of the Church.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Hmm ... *ponders*


Well, one thing that immediately comes to mind is that if a person thinks that Jesus is NOT the son of God, then that person must admit that Jesus lies. And that has several ramifications ...

or that jesus was just a smart person who realized that, given the time he lived in, how he delivered his message would effect how strongly that message was accepted... the fine line between "lies" and "tact"

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

My point was that the claims for Jesus were made by Jesus and proclaimed to have been exactly what He said for the last 2000 years by the Church. It is not a private opinion. The persons you cite have "private opinions" at variance with history and current claims of the Church.

hebrews and muslims believe jesus was only a prophet... that's not a "private opinion"

and many christian denominations believe that the bible is allegorical, at least in part

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Spock

WHY? Your presuming someone from that time period could not tell the truth all the time?

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand you ...

All I'm saying is that if a person concludes that Jesus wasn't the Son of God, as He claimed to be, then the person must conclude that Jesus was lying on that point (or was deluded).

And I don't think ANYONE from ANY time period (except for Jesus) was/is able to tell the truth all the time. I haven't. Have you?

Originally Posted by brownie

or that jesus was just a smart person who realized that, given the time he lived in, how he delivered his message would effect how strongly that message was accepted... the fine line between "lies" and "tact"

yes, but two things:
1 - first of all, in that time period and in that culture, what he said was blasphemy and the penalty was death. It would be a pretty shocking thing to say.

2 - when you say something like that, I just cringe. I've always been of the opinion that if a message can't stand on its own merits, then it has no business being propounded or accepted, and to use underhand ways to get it accepted is worse than not having it accepted.

Plus, what IS the "message" that Jesus would want accepted, presumably with a greater chance if He said He was God's Son? That we should be nice to one another? Personally, I agree with the apostle Paul, who said that if there is no resurrection, than Christians are the most to be pitied - we should have just grabbed for anything we could get our greedy hands on in this life, instead of living like we know our life here is only a tiny part of our real life.

[inked]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

hebrews and muslims believe jesus was only a prophet... that's not a "private opinion"

and many christian denominations believe that the bible is allegorical, at least in part

re: Jews and Muslims
Right, BJ. They are wrong. But they, and you, can choose to be wrong. That doesn't affect the Church's and Jesus' claims. Those are still exact. It's hard to get around "I and My Father are one." It is either a lie, a delusion, or the truth.


Re: allegory
Yes. And there is history, romance, historical romance, poetry, prophetic utterance, liturgical law, moral law, spiritual reality, etc. etc. etc.

[inked]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

or that jesus was just a smart person who realized that, given the time he lived in, how he delivered his message would effect how strongly that message was accepted... the fine line between "lies" and "tact"

BJ, a 'white lie' is still a lie. It may or may not be tactful within the social meaning of that word. However, it would not be 'tactful' or 'the truth' even if God told a lie. One cannot speak nonsense about God merely because He is God. He is not arbitrary nor nonsensical.

[brownjenkins]

in the words of Obi Wan Kenobi, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

i guess i put a bit more faith in humanity RÃ*an... as we discussed elsewhere, there are downsides to just grabbing everything you can get you hands on even if there is no afterlife, or if it is a different one from the one christians believe in

the concept that "we should be nice to one another" is enough for me, and there are certainly many non-christians who follow a similar morality, even though it comes from their own religion which may be very different than christianity

i wouldn't ask you to change your beliefs, or even stop thinking of others as wrong... just to realize that there are many different paths that can lead to the same positive outcome for humanity, in this world at least... maybe some will lead to damnation after death, but that's not really for you or me to decide

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

One cannot speak nonsense about God merely because He is God. He is not arbitrary nor nonsensical.

how can you be so sure?

we were created in his own image

[inked]

Well, BJ, we were created in His image which we promptly defaced. That's that sin thingy, remember? And it only cost God the Incarnation, Crucifixion, Death and Ressurrection, and Ascension to redeem us. If Jesus were not God, His work has no efficacy beyond the time limits and teaching because He was only man. If Jesus were not human, His work would have no efficacy for the human condition. But, if Jesus were thoroughly human and thoroughly God, His work would have total efficacy in eternity and time for those who chose to appropriate it.

The fact that the invasion has begun does not obliterate human free will nor human nonsensicality. But, you know that.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

in the words of Obi Wan Kenobi, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

Um, aren't the "good guys" rather "absolute" about thinking that Darth Vader and the Emperor doing bad things and need to be stopped? Hmmm? *innocent look*

[Insidious Rex]

Actually the "good guys" knew that Darth Vader wasnt entirely and completely evil. And that redemption could occur...

[brownjenkins]

exactly!

there is always hope