Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[gimli7410]

god has a meaning for everything trust me i kno

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson

<snip>
If you have trouble knowing why Christianity should be true when there are so many other religions, just ask God which one is true. If you seek him and he cares about you, he'll answer

So there are people God doesn't care about?

[Rían]

I would say no; I'm not sure what Lief meant....

[Lief Erikson]

No, no, no. That's not what I meant to imply. He does care about everyone, but MasterMothra clearly has doubts as to that fact. I'm saying that from MasterMothra's standpoint, it would make sense that if God cares about him, he'd answer. Particularly if he is the God Christians worship.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
No, no, no. That's not what I meant to imply. He does care about everyone, but MasterMothra clearly has doubts as to that fact. I'm saying that from MasterMothra's standpoint, it would make sense that if God cares about him, he'd answer. Particularly if he is the God Christians worship.

Aha. Got it.

[Rían]

Another interesting example of mis-communication by typing (I would have bet our new computer Lief didn't think that God didn't care about some people!)

Well, this thread seems to be winding down, so I think I'll cut way back on the scope of the Abraham answer, and try to get it into 1 or 2 posts.

[Rían]

To refresh any memories that need refreshing, or that weren't in on the way that the topic came up, briefly: there was a thread started by a person that said she was hearing voices and that the voices were saying to hurt herself and others. Many of us tried to help out this person, even though I think many of us thought that perhaps it might be a hoax, by giving some advice that we thought might help her. At one point, I said for her to pray, but that God would not tell her to do anything that would hurt anyone. Then Anduril responded by bringing up Genesis 22:1, which is the opening of the story of where Abraham is told by God to sacrifice his son Isaac. Since I thought that it was not worth the risk to discuss this topic on that thread, since there was a chance that the thread starter was entirely serious about hearing voices and might be encouraged to hurt someone, I asked Anduril to move the discussion somewhere else if he really wanted to talk about it (but I got mad at him first and rather lost my temper, because I thought it wasn't very kind to bring up something like that when the thread-starter was talking about hurting people, and I said he had no idea what the Genesis passage was about). Anduril then moved the Abraham question over here, where it was promptly buried by some other questions that came up. But now I have some time, and I'll try to talk about it, to the best of my limited knowledge.


And I got sidetracked and now have to leave to pick up the kids, so I'll just throw it out to anyone - what do you guys think it's about? I'll try to finish my post later this afternoon.

[Aralyn]

God was testing Abraham pure an' simple.

No it's not that he didn't love his son but God specificcly says to put God before everything. His [Abraham's] possesions, his life, his son's life. Everything.

[Lief Erikson]

Rather similar to what happened to Job, actually.

[Rían]

I think the testing of Abraham was definitely one thing that was going on - testing in the sense of demonstrating the faith that was already there - but not the only purpose of this episode. (BTW, remember that the Bible says that God does not tempt us, though - from James 1:13,14 - 'Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt any one. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.') But why did God pick that particular thing for Abraham to do, and not something like sacrifice Sarah, whom he also loved, or go jump off a very high place and see if God will save him (like Satan tempted Jesus to do in Luke 4:9)?

I think, from all I have read on the subject (and I've read a lot! I've been a Christian for 30 years, and I really like the OT, esp. Genesis) it's because this story is a 'type', or picture, of the upcoming sacrifice that Jesus will make for us (I think Gwaimir mentioned this earlier). That's why I started the discussion on Abraham/Isaac with the C. S. Lewis quotes, which I'll link back to: they're here

So God was preparing a certain historical setting for this Abraham/Isaac thing to take place in, and He was also preparing Abraham himself to be the father of the Jewish nation, and also the father of those who are Jews by faith, not by the flesh (Christians! - from Galatians 3:29 - "And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.")

Just a quick general note on Abraham - he is an extremely important person in the Christian faith! When I was looking up some verses about Abraham in my concordance, I found that there are over 70 references to Abraham in the New Testament alone! Seventy! Wow!

Anyway, back to the topic.... just a quick summary of some highlights of Abraham's life up to the point of this story...

1. [1]When Abram (as he is then called) is 75, God calls him to leave his country, and promises him that He will make him a great nation, and all the families of the earth will be blessed in him, etc. (the first call and the first promise). After he leaves, the Lord also appears to Abraham and restates part of the promise. (Genesis 12:1-7)
   
   [2] The word of the Lord comes to Abram again, and Abram asks God about his heir, since he has had no child, and currently the heir of his house is someone that is not his child. God's promise to Abram is made more exact, saying that one that comes forth "from your own body" shall be his heir (and start the great nation promised earlier). (Genesis 15). A couple of neat verses here, BTW - v. 6 - "Then he believed in the Lord, and He reckoned it to him as righteousness." The first mention of righteousness thru faith! Also, vs. 9-21 - when there is an animal sacrifice on the occasion of this covenant, it's interesting to note that only God passed thru the bodies (usually BOTH parties pass thru to signify their agreement to the terms) - IOW, God takes it completely upon Himself to bring this to pass. Just an interesting little side-note.
   
   [3] Sarai (as Sarah is then called) is childless, and she tries to help God along a little (as if He needed it!!) by following a custom of that time and giving her maid (Hagar) to Abram to bear children for her. The maid conceives and bears Ishmael. This is why Ishmael is known as 'the son of the bondwoman' (Galatians 4) or 'the son of the flesh' (can't find reference offhand). (Genesis 16)
   
   [4] When Abram is 99, God restates the promise, adds to it ('and kings shall come forth from you', among other things) and institutes the covenant of circumcision (note - Ishmael was conceived while Abram was NOT circumcised) as a sign of the covenant. God also renames Abram ('high father') as Abraham ('father of a multitude'), and Sarai to Sarah ('princess'). And God specifically says that He will give Abraham a son THROUGH SARAH! At this, Abraham actually 'fell on his face and laughed', because Sarah was 90 and past childbearing! and, 'said in his heart, "Will a child be born to a man one hundred years old? And will Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?" ', and then said outloud to God, "Oh that Ishmael might live before Thee!" (IOW, no way with Sarah, so please at least use Ishmael!) But God answered what he said in his heart, not outloud, and said again that Sarah will bear him a son, and to call him Isaac (which means 'he laughs'!), and God will establish His covenant with Isaac. And further, that Sarah will bear Isaac the next year. Then Abraham goes and circumcises every male in his household (and what a day that must have been ) (Genesis 17)
   
   [5] Isaac is born to Abraham and Sarah one year later, just as God promised (Genesis 21).

[Rían]

and as usual, I took longer than I intended, so I'll have to finish tomorrow or the next day Any comments so far?

[GrayMouser]

Rian, I didn't ask before because I basically agree with MasterMothra's viewpoint, and didn't want to get on a personal level, but if you are recommending a Lewis book to him, why on Earth "The Problem of Pain" and not "A Grief Observed"?

[Rían]

You've read A Grief Observed? IIRC, you're not a Christian; that's rather interesting that you've read one of Lewis' more obscure books. Have you read many of his books (and if so, why aren't you a Christian )

AGO is a good book, but as Lewis says in there somewhere, he's NOT thinking clearly some of the times, he's just pouring out his grief and his jumbled thoughts, whereas in PoP he's really addressing the intellectual questions about pain, which seem to be what MM is objecting to about Christianity. I wanted to recommend a book to MM where Lewis IS thinking clearly about the subject, not one where his grief sometimes gets the better of his judgement.

I don't know, though, MM - maybe AGO would also be a book that might help you, although in a different way - Lewis certainly loved his wife a lot.

[GrayMouser]

Confession time- I only read it last night, before I posted.
I've picked it up a few times, but the sheer personal gut-spilling intensity caused me to shy away- I'm from northern English working-class background; always taught to repress emotions and just carry your load - "Eee, stop yer moanin' and get on with it, lad".

So, there I was in a Taiwan University library at 9 o'clock at night, tears spilling down my face and Chinese students backing out of the stacks away from this crazy foreigner before he flips out.

I'm fortunate enough that I haven't lost anybody really close to me since my father, more than thirty years ago- not in an untimely way, anyway- grandparents in their 80s and suchlike-but the power of his writing was enough to totally break me up.
I'm married myself, so I found myself projecting into his situation- especially when he said look, you have to face it- one or the other of you is going to be left alone.

For those who haven't read it, "A Grief Observed" is a very short journal Lewis wrote immediately after the death of his beloved wife Joy from a long and agonizing bout with cancer. In it he pours out his anguish, doubts and even rage against God before coming back to his faith.

As far as grief overcoming judgement, I think that's the power of the book- it's NOT an intellectual exercise, it's getting your nose rubbed in it- hard.

I went back and reread PoP (Rian, you're a bad influence on an old skeptic), but I think that, like most of Lewis's theological writing, it's more appropriate for Christians either newly converted or newly facing some of the questions that a modern mind brings to bear on their faith.

[Rían]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Confession time- I only read it last night, before I posted.
I've picked it up a few times, but the sheer personal gut-spilling intensity caused me to shy away- I'm from northern English working-class background; always taught to repress emotions and just carry your load - "Eee, stop yer moanin' and get on with it, lad".
So, there I was in a Taiwan University library at 9 o'clock at night, tears spilling down my face and Chinese students backing out of the stacks away from this crazy foreigner before he flips out.

That's a funny picture! and it IS pretty intense, isn't it? Do you live in Taiwan (a bit of a walk from Northern England )? Short-term or for a longer spell?

I'm fortunate enough that I haven't lost anybody really close to me since my father, more than thirty years ago- not in an untimely way, anyway- grandparents in their 80s and suchlike-but the power of his writing was enough to totally break me up.
I'm married myself, so I found myself projecting into his situation- especially when he said look, you have to face it- one or the other of you is going to be left alone.

That's one of the sad parts of a good marriage, isn't it , unless you both go out together in an accident or summit (as Coney would say).

For those who haven't read it, "A Grief Observed" is a very short journal Lewis wrote immediately after the death of his beloved wife Joy from a long and agonizing bout with cancer. In it he pours out his anguish, doubts and even rage against God before coming back to his faith. As far as grief overcoming judgement, I think that's the power of the book- it's NOT an intellectual exercise, it's getting your nose rubbed in it- hard.

I think I'll re-read it, I haven't for awhile... and BTW, I have no objection to doubts and anger, etc. (IOW, I think that because Christianity is a relationship, these things will come up, and it's wrong to ignore them), but I recommended PoP over AGO because it seemed to me that MM was asking an intellectual question that PoP could answer. But really, perhaps AGO would answer it better after all... what do you say, MM - do you want to add another book to your list

I went back and reread PoP (Rian, you're a bad influence on an old skeptic), but I think that, like most of Lewis's theological writing, it's more appropriate for Christians either newly converted or newly facing some of the questions that a modern mind brings to bear on their faith.

I'm SO glad to be a 'bad' influence on you ! Why aren't you a Christian (if you can get over that northern English reticence and share with me ) That's interesting that you would think that about PoP, because I've always thought that the faith part is irrelevant in that book to how Lewis answers the question of how a good God can allow pain. IOW, you don't have to be a Christian to see the logic in the answer; it holds together logically. But perhaps I'm wrong, and it doesn't make sense to non-Christians; what do you think? Is it just that it's non-applicable because you're not a Christian, or is it that it didn't make sense to you?

[Rían]

So after reviewing some things about Abraham and his life up to the point of the Abraham/Isaac story in Genesis 22, here's some remarks on it...

As far as the 'testing' aspect of it, I'll just quote a section from a commentary:

from Eerdmans' commentary
By 'tempting' is not meant inciting to sin (James 1:13), but trying, proving, giving occasion for the development of his faith. It was designed, not as an experiment to ascertain whether and how far Abraham trusted in God, but to bring out the faith which was so eminent a quality in his character into full display to His "praise, and honour, and glory" (I Peter 1:7). That faith had already stood proof under a succession of nine severe trials, each more severe than the preceding (chpts. 11:1,10,15; 14:13,14; 16:2,3; 17:23, 20:2, 21:11,14); and the new trial which is about to be described formed the climax in the course of educational discipline by which he was trained to the service of the true God. Indeed, the extent and stability of his religious devotedness were manifested in so striking a manner that he was subjected to no further trials during the remainder of his life.

--------------------------------

And now onto the other aspect of the story - the "picture of Christ" idea.

I think there are 3 pictures going on here -

• [1]Abraham prefigures our heavenly father who "did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all" (Romans 8:32);
  
  [2]Isaac pictures Christ "obedient to death" (Philippians 2:5-8); and
  
  [3]The ram that was provided by God and ended up being sacrificed pictures how Christ provided substitutionary atonement for us - "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." (2 Corinthians 5:21) and all through the book of Hebrews, esp. chpts 9 and 10, talking about how the animal sacrifices that were part of the Law of Moses weren't good enough, but only a picture of the sacrifice of Christ for us.

And I can't believe it, but I've run out of time and need to go get the kids from school - maybe it's better 'short and sweet' instead of my usual lengthy posts! Just a quick note on #2 - Isaac was probably about 27 or so, so he had to be willing (it was NOT a case of Abraham overpowering a 4-year-old!) Also, on #1 - Abraham had such faith in God that even though God's promise said that his descendants should come thru ISAAC, specifically, Abraham was willing to obey God anyway in this matter, because (I'll find the ref later) something like "he believed that God could even raise people from the dead".

This is such an important story in the Bible, and really beautifully presents a picture of Christ's upcoming sacrifice for our sins, out of His great love for us.

Gotta run

[Rían]

And here's the reference for the note on #1 - it's Hebrews 11:17-19.

[Rían]

And now onto a new subject, since it appears that everyone agrees with everything I've said on all of the previous topics

My 7-year-old posed a question that I really don't have an answer to from the Bible, so I thought I'd throw it open to you guys -

We were talking about the pros and cons of various pets, and my 7-yr-old said he didn't like worms because they pooped (they currently have a worm in a little bug-catcher plastic cage thingie, and they now have visual evidence that worms do, indeed, poop), and I said, "well, but EVERYTHING poops!" Then he came back with "except God, right?"

I think that he's probably correct And now that I think of it, this area probably falls under the "God is perfect" realm of Bible verses.

Just a funny little kid-thing I thought I'd share with you guys

[Coney]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
And now onto a new subject, since it appears that everyone agrees with everything I've said on all of the previous topics

My 7-year-old posed a question that I really don't have an answer to from the Bible, so I thought I'd throw it open to you guys -

We were talking about the pros and cons of various pets, and my 7-yr-old said he didn't like worms because they pooped (they currently have a worm in a little bug-catcher plastic cage thingie, and they now have visual evidence that worms do, indeed, poop), and I said, "well, but EVERYTHING poops!" Then he came back with "except God, right?"

I think that he's probably correct And now that I think of it, this area probably falls under the "God is perfect" realm of Bible verses.

Just a funny little kid-thing I thought I'd share with you guys

Hehe, cute

I'm pretty sure God does poop though. In fact, I'm pretty sure that whenever the Almighty looks in my directions he's wagging an admonishing finger with one hand and holding the loo roll in the other <----------please note the winky emoticon.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I thought I'd ressurect this thread for my own vile purposes.

Anywho, I've been hearin some rather...surprising (and incorrect) thoughts on what Christians believe, and Christianity in general recently. I was wondering if some of those who do not believe in Christianity would be willing to share some of what they think Christians believe, as a sort of survey? I would have posted this in the Religious Knowledge thread, but I was afraid that might close it somewhat to learning about other religions.

Anyone?

-Igor flips the switch-