The Anti-theist Thread

[emplynx]

Originally posted by Anduril
But perhaps you could explain the purpose of praying in that case?

I believe in the power of prayer. I pray that one day you will believe as I do.

Now you are going to yell because you are going to say that I think Christianity is the only way and that I shouldn't impress my views on other people. Well, I do believe it is the only way and it is my job to impress my views on other.

Originally posted by Anduril
you know, atheists are blasphemous sex-crazed immoral sinners.

Good point, nice to hear you say it!

[afro-elf]

I’m getting the impression that creationism is a significant movement only in the USA.

sad but true

[afro-elf]

Yo! Anduril. Stop scoping my Betty.


Litanty to BoP

A goddess from the underworld
Yet, one of beauty, power and light
Chasing away the dogma's prison
To the blind she gives sight

The face of an angel
The mind of a god
Those who witness her manifest exclaim
"What a bod!"

So I your humble servant
Await in your beckon call
For you are the Sovereign Goddess of Reason
I worship you above all

[BeardofPants]

Why thank you Afro Elf, in amidst all those typing errors, thy doth have a silver tongue....

*giggles insanely*

(What a great wake up call.... )

Now... Emplynx....

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by emplynx
I believe in the power of prayer. I pray that one day you will believe as I do.

Now you are going to yell because you are going to say that I think Christianity is the only way and that I shouldn't impress my views on other people. Well, I do believe it is the only way and it is my job to impress my views on other.

Hmmm.... which to dissect first... hmmm....

Okay, the power of prayer? Have you ever noticed that it seems to work like astrology? Those who get their prayers answered, generally do, because they asked for something vague that would have perhaps happened anyway?

"God, please let me meet a dark haired stranger?"

And Lo! God caused her to meet a dark haired stranger on the subway, who did cause to have her wallet stolen from her.

Also, never underestimate the power of the mind. Self hypnotism is very easy, and in fact so is hypnotism. Having trained (informally) in both hypnotism, and NLP (Neuro Linguistic Pathways), I can honestly say that those preachers that induce mass hysteria, and 'miracle' cures, employ every trick in the book, from breathing technique, to visualisation. Those so called cures are nothing more than hypnotism at best. And the stories you don't hear? The cures that have reverted back... The woman who could walk again, before she lost her legs .... again. I could go on, and on.

Finally, if your God is just, (which I doubt), then as long as you believe in, and pay your dues to a higher entity, then I think it would be immaterial, if you were praying to the 'wrong' god. Anyway, that is an oxymoron, because, according to your beliefs, god is omnipresent, which means he is everywhere, including in those 'heathen' religions which don't conform to your particular one.

Good point, nice to hear you say it!

I'm hoping that was a joke.

If nothing else, what did the story of jesus teach you? Tolerance, of all those that are different, poor, and weak. You might want to heed that.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Cirdan
Umm, well give me a second. *hits self on head very hard*

Evolution is wrong because....

*hits head again*
Darwin was not alive when the dinosaurs ate cain and... *

*hits head one too many time and passes out*

huh, oh, welll sorry I tried, You'll have to wait for them to come back. Anybody got an asprin?

Well, good try Cirdan! Have a smartie, I'll even give you a BLUE one, for your efforts. Now if you want to be completely illogical, I highly suggest that you try reading some of their literature, and 'chick' books backwards, if that doesn't do it, then nothing will!

[Darth Tater]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
If nothing else, what did the story of jesus teach you? Tolerance, of all those that are different, poor, and weak. You might want to heed that.

BoP, you obviously don't have a good grasp of the concept of Religion and Organized Religion. See, churches create canons with the purpose of contradicting everything they say, so that they can basically do whatever the hell they want. That's how organized religion works!

[emplynx]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
If nothing else, what did the story of jesus teach you? Tolerance, of all those that are different, poor, and weak. You might want to heed that.

I believe in Toleration of all people! But I don't think you can show me one place where Jesus says that Christianity isn't the only way!

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by emplynx

I believe in Toleration of all people! But I don't think you can show me one place where Jesus says that Christianity isn't the only way!

Er... that might be because you are reading the bible, not the other 'holy' literature that is out there. Also, Omnipresence for me, means being everywhere, everytime, etc, so I think that it would count if he were to exist in other religions as well, which all seem to have the same basic premise. (and that would be? intolerance maybe?)

And your toleration for people who are different is to what? Pray for them to change their 'evil/ignorant' ways? That's not tolerance.

[Andúril]

Emplynx:

I believe in the power of prayer.

That's pretty much a given.

What I meant when I asked perhaps you could explain the purpose of praying in that case?, was what possible good could arise from such prayer? What good could arise from a Chrisitian praying for a non-Chiristian who is persecuting the Christian, applicable to the non-Christian?

*pops his head out*

I don't know if I want to ask....

But Emplynx, have you had a look at my arguments (the ones that favour the non-existence of your god)?

Anduril wonders if they flew over Emplynx's head while it was in the - nevermind...

But seriously, hasn't anyone noticed the random results of prayer? I prayed to God once, and this is what happened:

I had a packet of sweets, which were of four different colours, and there were 10 sweets of each colour. And I prayed to the Lord Almighty, and I said, "Oh Lord God, praise thy name! Please let me stick my hand in the packet and take out 6 red sweets, 3 brown sweets and 1 orange sweet."

So I put my hand in the packet (I couldn't see the sweets), and I took. And Lo! I held in my hand 6 red sweets, 3 brown sweets and 2 green sweets.

Then I went outside, and I prayed to the Lord Almighty, and I said, "Oh Lord God, praise thy name! Please let me see three birds flying past that tree in the next ten seconds."

And I looked at the tree, and Lo! I saw three birds flaying past it, indeed in ten seconds.

What is the moral of the story? Don't test your god with sweets...

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Anduril
Don't test your god with sweets...

Does chocolate count?

[Andúril]

What kind? Nestle Immoral? Or perhaps Cadbury's non-omnipotent. Or Incoherent-flavour Oreos?

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Anduril
What kind? Nestle Immoral? Or perhaps Cadbury's non-omnipotent. Or Incoherent-flavour Oreos?

Hmm.... anyone of those would be good right now.... Hershey's "out and out lies"? Got any of that?

[Andúril]

How about the candy-coated Mythbar...

[BeardofPants]

Um... "Easy answers" M & M's?

[Earniel]

Originally posted by emplynx
I believe in Toleration of all people! But I don't think you can show me one place where Jesus says that Christianity isn't the only way!

Just wondering. Is there a place where he says that Christianity is the only way?

[Wayfarer]

Ok BoP. I never did get around to catching up on this thread, but I'm going to reply to what I can anyway.

Originally posted by BeardofPants
In modern times antibiotics, drugs that target specific features of bacteria, have become very popular. Bacteria evolve very quickly so it is not surprising that they have evolved resistance to antibiotics. As a general thing this involves changing the features that antibiotics target.

<Edited for Space>

I seem to remember reading something about this... doesn't the mutation that makes them resistant work by shutting down some inhibitor, which in turn allows them to produce a bunch of some chemical that stops the antibiotics from working?

In any case, there are a few things we need to understand:

1)Even useful mutations result from the loss or reshuffling of information
2)Positive mutations do not account for the possibility of one creature changing into another. (i.e.) single to multi cell)
3)All of the examples which you site are well within the creationist system. At least within my version of it. Likewise they are within an evolutionary system. But they are not real evidence of either.

[Earniel]

Good to have you back Wayfarer.

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by Anduril
Wayfarer:

Your entire refutation rests on God not being limited by the same things that we are.

Moot point.

However, If you're attempting to find logical flaws in what I believe, you better make absolutely sure that you're discussing what I believe, and not some straw man based on bits and pieces you picked up in sunday school when you were six. Are you?

Originally posted by Anduril
Somehow? I think you are going to have to show me exactly how he is able to perform that action, and you will have to show me the evidence from the bible, the innerant word of God, in order to back up your claim.

Just because an artist can "somehow" see all frames, how does it follow that that artist can edit all frames at the same time. Totally unsubstantiated.

Not really. Take my example a little further. I, as a human, can only tinker with my MPEG movie one frame at a time. The computer, which actually does all the calculating anyway, could make changes in many frames almost simultaneously.

But that's somewhat beside the point. If I thought that I, and the english language, could adaquately express what we're discussing, I wouldn't have resorted to metaphor. Stop being pedantic.

Originally posted by Anduril
The bible, if I am not mistaken, is full of temporal language, in its attempts at describing something that you claim is outside of time.

As if it would be possible to do otherwise? Even if it weren't patently impossible for us, as temporal beings, to understand what a non-temporal or Omni-temporal existance, it would take more than the language we have now to explain it.

Originally posted by Anduril
Really? Why not? Just because we, from your "flatland" perspective, can not fully perceive a being of more than 4 dimensions, does that make this being self-existant? What reason do you have to believe that God does not exist in his own universe, and theists just interpret that being as "self-existent"? How are you justified in believing that a being, who exists in more than our four dimensions, is not constrained to any external laws?

Eh...? Let me summarize my line of thought:

Things come from other Things.
Therefore, everything must come from something that is self existant.
The simplist explaination is that there is one self existant entity-either God or Nature.
There are problems with a self existant nature which make it difficult to rationally believe.
So a single, self existant Creator is the most reasonable explaination.

When I say God I mean the single, self existant, creator of everything. And, building on that definition, there are some other things which I can surmise:

This God cannot have a Beginning or an End.
This God cannot be constrained by an external laws (because anything outside of him is nescessarily his creation, and thus constrained by his will)
This God cannot be contained by any entity, and thus he cannot be 'inside' a universe. He is active in it, of course, and he puts himself into it (otherwise it would not be able to exist) All the same, It is not the backdrop to his existance, but rather the reverse.

Now. This is not to say I disbelieve in indirect causes. God could, (conceivably) have created other beings (the valar or the greek gods) who shaped the earth and govern it at his will. But these entities are still his creations, and thus whatever honor I may gve them I shall give him a greater amount.

Now, I do not believe that god is four dimensional, but that his is Omni-dimensional. That is, all dimensions exist within him.

Originally posted by Anduril
These are geometric dimensions, not time dimensions.
How?
Fine, but that has absolutely nothing to do with time.

Metaphor. Smoke and Mirrors. Symbol. Those examples are merely aids to understanding what i'm trying to describe. Not to be confused with the thing itself.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Wayfarer


Metaphor. Smoke and Mirrors. Symbol. Those examples are merely aids to understanding what i'm trying to describe. Not to be confused with the thing itself.

That pretty much sums up alll of your arguments.

Things come from other Things.
Therefore, everything must come from something that is self existant.
The simplist explaination is that there is one self existant entity-either God or Nature.
There are problems with a self existant nature which make it difficult to rationally believe.
So a single, self existant Creator is the most reasonable explaination.

Have you ever seen just one of anything? The opposite of what you say is true. If there is one, the circumstances that allow its existence would certainly allow for more than one. More than one galaxy, more than one universe, etc. Therefore, there must be an entire population coexistant to "god", and then it's back to alien intervention theory.