REAL debate thread for RELIGION

[Drgnslyer]

This is a very sensitive issue...Personally I'm pro-BC, regardless of type. I honestly cannot logically see how BC can ruin a relationship, family, or marriage...

90% of family breakups happen as a result of financing, or lack thereof....and 90% of the time when couples break up, they find secondary reasons as to why the split-up happened in the first place, keeping themselves in denial of the truth of the matter.

Denial is a massive part of our society, for some reason...i guess people just like to lie to themselves and to other people around them....another major contributing cause to breakups....

I'm not sure where in the bible it specifically says that you cannot use birth controll....if i'm wrong, please let me know.

[MasterMothra]

What I was trying to understand was the process of how all humanity started from 2 people, Adam and Eve. Procreation is accomplished by sex, and if my memory servers me correct the only time immaculate conception occurred was with Jesus. If the above statements are correct then would incest have to be considered for reproduction to occur in that frame of time?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
What I was trying to understand was the process of how all humanity started from 2 people, Adam and Eve. Procreation is accomplished by sex, and if my memory servers me correct the only time immaculate conception occurred was with Jesus. If the above statements are correct then would incest have to be considered for reproduction to occur in that frame of time?

eeeeeeeeewwwwww

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
What I was trying to understand was the process of how all humanity started from 2 people, Adam and Eve. Procreation is accomplished by sex, and if my memory servers me correct the only time immaculate conception occurred was with Jesus. If the above statements are correct then would incest have to be considered for reproduction to occur in that frame of time?

actually the immaculate conception occured when Mary was conceieved (naturally). the virgin birth refers to Jesus' conception and birth...i.e. by the Holy Spirit (no sex involved).
yes, I think that procreation is a natural part of sex which is why I think that people shouldn't artificially interfere with it. a woman can only conceive for about 3 days a month however. Just my last 2 cents before I really do "bow out"

(ok, again, I never said that using NFP will save a marriage or that ABC is really responsible for a breakup. in the end , the couple has to work at it.....I can't really explain it anymore without writing pageson it and I don't have the energy.)

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
What I was trying to understand was the process of how all humanity started from 2 people, Adam and Eve. Procreation is accomplished by sex, and if my memory servers me correct the only time immaculate conception occurred was with Jesus. If the above statements are correct then would incest have to be considered for reproduction to occur in that frame of time?

Major Creationist sites like "Answers in Genesis" acknowledge that humanity sprang from incest among the chidren of Adam and Eve

If we now work totally from Scripture, without any personal prejudices or other extra-Biblical ideas, then back at the beginning, when there was only the first generation, brothers would have had to have married sisters or there would be no more generations!

We are not told when Cain married or any of the details of other marriages and children, but we can say for certain that some brothers had to marry their sisters at the beginning of human history.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home...cains_wife.asp

[Earniel]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Major Creationist sites like "Answers in Genesis" acknowledge that humanity sprang from incest among the chidren of Adam and Eve

So basically, if you don't want to believe that humanity sprang from the humble mix of chance, evolution and probably primeval goo, you have little other option than to accept that incest lay at the beginning of humanity? God does have a sense of humour then....

[Ruinel]

But by which creation story would we go by? There are so many!

Some of them do involve incest. I believe that Egyptian creation stories involve incest between 'sub-gods' as well. I'm not sure if Native American creation stories do also. Does anyone know if European, Asian and African (other than Egypt) creation stories involve incest like the Christian one does? Also, what about Middle Eastern?

We have some members from Australia and NZ here. Are any of you familiar with creation stories of aboriginal people there? I'd like to hear those if you know them.

[Bombadillo]

Some Native Americans probably had incestuous beliefs. There were a bunch of tribes with different stories. I know the afterlife beliefs of the Delwares call for a seven year walk on a log across an abyss, over the underworld, to get to heavenly paradise. The log has been gnawed by each one of your 'sins' in your lifetime, so if you were bad, it would snap midway and you'd plummet to the underworld and watch heaven fade above you. But that's irrelevant.

A Mayan creation myth says that there was only water in the beginning, and the god tried making Men out of various substances (ash, clay, wood) which all failed for different reasons. So he removed part of his own flesh and crafted Man out of that, which pleased him so greatly that he used the other substances to make land for him to walk on.

[Rían]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
What I was trying to understand was the process of how all humanity started from 2 people, Adam and Eve. Procreation is accomplished by sex, and if my memory servers me correct the only time immaculate conception occurred was with Jesus. If the above statements are correct then would incest have to be considered for reproduction to occur in that frame of time?

There was no command against brothers and sisters marrying until many thousands of years after Adam and Eve. Considering that incest laws are around because of the increased chance of genetic abnormalities of the children of the union, this makes perfect sense - the people closer in time to Adam and Eve would NOT have built up the genetic problems that the later generations have, and there would be no problem with permitting brother/sister marriages. But observing my OWN kids, I imagine that as soon as cousins were available, that the number of brother/sister marriages dropped off pretty fast!

At this point in time, even first cousin marriages are prohibited in many places, because of the even GREATER genetic burden that we now carry.

BTW, this is just another pointer to the problems of the ENORMOUS amounts of time required by evolution - the genetic burden that would have accumulated would have been huge, and IMO, would have been more than enough to overcome any slight possibility of beneficial mutations, and would have wiped out the species.

[Insidious Rex]

genetic burden?

[BeardofPants]

Genetic Burden?

[brownjenkins]

genetic burden?

[Earniel]

*refrains from repeating others*

So are you saying we're all genetic misfits? That's interesting.

[Janny]

I suppose we all had to start from the same point... but i think the point was it began way before it mattered, if that makes sense.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Some of them do involve incest. I believe that Egyptian creation stories involve incest between 'sub-gods' as well.

The Pharoah was considered to be a living god. Some of their tombs have apertures and, er, burial postures which allow the dead Pharoah to inseminate the gods in the afterlife.

Yeah, and those ancient Egyptians did with their mothers ewww

Originally posted by Ruinel
But by which creation story would we go by? There are so many!

Personally, I like the Great Green Arkleseizure Theory:

According to that most famous of sages, Douglas Adams, the Jartravartid Tribe of Viltvodle VI believe that the entire Universe was, in fact, sneezed out of the nose of a being called the Great Green Arkleseizure. They live in perpetual fear of the time they call the Coming of the Great White Handkerchief, and are small blue creatures with more than fifty arms each, who are therefore unique in being the only race in history to have invented the aerosol deodorant before the wheel.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
The Pharoah was considered to be a living god. Some of their tombs have apertures and, er, burial postures which allow the dead Pharoah to inseminate the gods in the afterlife.

Yeah, and those ancient Egyptians did with their mothers ewww

*shudders*

Personally, I like the Great Green Arkleseizure Theory:

Don't you just love Douglas Adams!

[Rían]

Originally posted by Eärniel
*refrains from repeating others*

So are you saying we're all genetic misfits? That's interesting.

Did I say we're genetic misfits? *looks back* No, I didn't.

Today seems to be a "misquote RÃ*an" day *evil look at BOP*

[Rían]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Genetic Burden?

And I'm NOT gonna play with you guys until BOP gives me a really juicy, abject apology for blatantly misusing the quote feature on the Teacup Cafe thread (and she pilfered MY evil idea!!)

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Ruinel
*shudders*


Don't you just love Douglas Adams!

Not 'alf.

Krikkit, where their planet was surrounded by a cloud of dust so they didn't know any stars existed until they discovered space flight, flew out of the dust cloud to behold the majesty of the rest of the galaxy for the first time and said

"It'll have to go."

[Earniel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Today seems to be a "misquote RÃ*an" day *evil look at BOP*

Totally unintentially on my part, I assure you. You did not say genetics misfits and neither did I say you did. However, when you mentioned huge accumulated genetic burdens I interpreted it as you meaning we are genetically flawed. If misfit is a term that can't be used in this context, blame it on my less than perfect knowledge of English.