Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
.


My younger sister was having some problems with the hell, and I was talking to her about it. There are two passages that I like to refer to about this subject. In one of them, Jesus is upset over the cities Korazin and Bethsaida refusing to believe (At least I think it's those two cities). Anyway, he says that it would be worse for them on the judgment day than for Sodom and Gomorrah, because if the people of Sodom and Gomorrah had seen the miracles that were done in Korazin and Bethsaida, they would have repented.

This implies that there are degrees of punishment; people aren't just all thrown into one tub of fire.

Second, Jesus describes two people committing a crime. One did it knowingly and the other unknowingly, but both sinned. Jesus says that he who did the sin knowingly will be beaten with many blows, but he who did it unknowingly will be beaten with few blows.

As in Dante's Inferno in the First Circle of Hell:

The kindly master said"Do you not ask
who are these spirits whom you see before you?
I'd have you know before you go ahead,
they did not sin; and yet though they have merits,
that's not enough, because they lacked baptism,
the portal of the faith that you embrace.

And if they lived before Christianity,
they did not worship God in fitting ways;
and of such spirits I myself am one.
For these defects and for no other evil,
we now are lost and punished just with this:
we have no hope and yet we live with longing.
(Canto IV lines 31-42)

The 'master' is the Roman poet Virgil, and the other inhabitants of Limbo are the great pagan writers and thinkers (Dante was a good Classicist).

Virgil goes on to name Adam and the other Old Testament figures as having resided in the First Circle until Christ came to bear them to Heaven; I think that in Catholic doctrine it's also the home of babies who die before baptism.

It's not a place of torment- but it's definitely not Heaven either.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by MasterMothra

<snip>

if there is a god, is he the god of the jews, muslims or christians? and answer me this if you will: if jesus is the only way to salvation, are the muslims and jews destined for hell?

I've wondered about this, so I've done a little digging on the subject.

According to the Roman Catholic Church (since Vatican II anyway), not necessarily, due to the doctrine of 'invincible ignorance' : "ignorance beyond the individual's control and for which, therefore, he is not responsible before God" (Hyperdictionary, 'ignorance')

The argument is that it is obviously unjust to condemn someone for not accepting Jesus Christ if they've never heard of Him.

Extending from that, if someone's background has so conditioned them that, in good faith, they can not accept the Church's message, they are held to be in the same condition- it applies to heretics (Protestants) too.

It does NOT apply to apostates (like you and me, MasterMothra) who have rejected our faith.

The catch is that you still have to live a good life and accept the principles of Natural Law, which are implanted in every human heart -and are indeed inherent in the Universe- and are discoverable by reason, but if you do that you can obtain salvation even without accepting Jesus.

http://www.catholic-forum.com/commun...rary/117.shtml

This seemed to be C.S. Lewis's view as well.

[MasterMothra]

Do you accept the laws of conservation? That something cannot come from nothing?

something cannot come from nothing is only applicable in a closed system, and even that thoery has been challanged by the theories of einstein and lamb. einstein with E=mc^2, and willis with his nobel prize winning lamb shift. an unforseen effect of the lamb shift was the presence of virtual particles.
the laws of conservation allow for change.

Do you accept the law of causality? I.E. Do you accept that any object having a beginning must have a cause? As a corollory, do you agree that, being that the universe exists, it must be the result of infinite regression?

no i dont. christian apologists use this cosmological argument to imply that there cannot be an infinite number of regressions of causes to things that exist. One of the weaknesses of the argument is that if all things need a cause to exist, then god himself must also, by definition, need a cause to exist. this in turn implies an infinite number of causes which cannot be. this is paradoxical. also, the christian god, by definition, is uncaused.

[Starr Polish]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
no, i believe that there is absolute truth. its pretty simple; either there is a god or there isnt a god. if there is a god, is he the god of the jews, muslims or christians?

God is not only for Christians, only for Jews, only for Muslims. God belongs to everyone, and everyone belongs to God, no matter what you practice, what you believe, what you do.

[MasterMothra]

i apologize, starr polish. i was not clear with that statement. what i meant to say was, if there is a one true god, what religion best represents his will? this is very important when it comes to the idea of salvation, and what is reqired for that salvation to occur.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
i apologize, starr polish. i was not clear with that statement. what i meant to say was, if there is a one true god, what religion best represents his will? this is very important when it comes to the idea of salvation, and what is reqired for that salvation to occur.

A Muslim who converted to Christianity took the Koran and the Bible and asked Jesus (Who actually had sought her out, not the other way around) which one he could be found through. He answered, "In which one can a personal relationship with me be found?"

Or something to that effect. So she took the Bible and was born again.

If you have trouble knowing why Christianity should be true when there are so many other religions, just ask God which one is true. If you seek him and he cares about you, he'll answer. Why do you always ignore me when I tell you Christianity isn't a belief system?

[Andúril]

MasterMothra:
what i meant to say was, if there is a one true god, what religion best represents his will? this is very important when it comes to the idea of salvation, and what is reqired for that salvation to occur.

Is salvation a necessary corollary of the existence of a god or "divine" entity? It seems to me that you have begged this question.

[Aralyn]

I hate threads like this but I feel the need to point out a couple of misconceptions here

One) Some of you seem to think its a 'kissing up to god or else you go to hell thing' Well I can see where you get that but that's not really the point. God created us and then he sent his son to die for us. If someone offers to save your life you don't say no thanks i'd rather die! You accept it. That's all God does. He says, I saved you and love you come live with me. Not a hard choice.

Two) This is sort of an elaboration on point one. Of course no one is perfect. You don't have to BE perfect. Just obey simple principles.

Three) We seem to have some aethists here also and I would like to point out that there are a million things that have happened in our world that could not have happened by chance

If you want to comment on this or PM me fine but please ask me nicely. I don't want to offend or anything just point out some things.

[MasterMothra]

If you seek him and he cares about you, he'll answer.

i thought god cared about us no matter what. when my wife was dying i sought god, i asked him to spare her life. i asked this every day for 5 months and i never received any response from god at all.

Why do you always ignore me when I tell you Christianity isn't a belief system?

im not ignoring you, i just dont agree with you. if you believe in the bible you have to believe some things to be true, i.e. the resurrection, jesus is the son of god, heaven and hell.


18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

[Aralyn]

Also if you want advice on religion dont look on a website like this.
I challenge you to pray and research them. Seriously. Find out which ones match up to history exactly and tell the truth.

[MasterMothra]

If you seek him and he cares about you, he'll answer.

i thought god cared about us no matter what. when my wife was dying i sought god, i asked him to spare her life. i asked this every day for 5 months and i never received any response from god at all.

Why do you always ignore me when I tell you Christianity isn't a belief system?

im not ignoring you, i just dont agree with you. if you believe in the bible you have to believe some things to be true, i.e. the resurrection, jesus is the son of god, heaven and hell.

if the christian account of god is true, then the people that do not believe that jesus is the son of god will not have everlasting life. muslims and jews do not share your version of jesus' divinity. so i ask you, are they doomed to not enter the kingdom of heaven?

john 3

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Why do you always ignore me when I tell you Christianity isn't a belief system?

You have used some logical reasoning to give good reasons why Christianity isn't correct, but one of the base assumptions of that reasoning is that Christianity as I know it isn't correct. That is something I'm somewhat disgruntled about.


As for these other questions about Christianity, such as pain's existence, it would be a good idea to read the Problem of Pain, as RÃ*an suggested. I'm actually going to read that too, hopefully starting next weekend. I've arranged to borrow it from a friend and I hope to gain some good insights from it .

As I see it currently, God couldn't create free creations without free will, and free will automatically gives the possibility of evil. Even God can do evil; he simply never does because it isn't in his nature to do so. In his creations, he originally designed it so that it wouldn't be in their natures either. Satan changed that through commiting the first sins, pride and envy, and those led to all manner of the other sins. His originally pure nature fell into evil, and after that, contaminated with all manner of sins, he led humanity astray as well.

Humanity also had its nature capable of evil, though originally innocent, for it wasn't in their nature to. Their first sins were just like Satan's, pride and envy when they thought to be like God.

So sin originated from man and the devil, and it became a part of their nature. Thus sin, pain, all the evil that exists is currently man's and the devil's fault, not God's. On the contrary, God hates it and fights it hard (So hard that he sent his only son to die so that sin would be defeated). But he still permits free will.

So that's my current perspective and it seems to me that the war with sin finally leads Christians into a greater final holiness then they originally possessed, even in the original creation state.

That God would create the possibility of evil is the thing that you're questioning, whether giving us complete free will is right or not, or whether he should have made our free will limited.

What you seem to be advocating is the limiting of free will for humanity's protection, and I can understand that. Why God made us with complete free will I don't completely understand and I hope to gain a more complete view on this subject from The Problem of Pain.

However, I will say that whatever God's purpose in creating us with complete free will, it is possible to be set free from sin entirely, which shows that God does love us enough to open a door for us to escape from our own folly. And when we come through that door, we do become protected by God in a very neat way, for we are his children. And like any father, he looks after his children. He tells us when we are falling into sin, or falling short of his design for us, where we need to improve. He gives us his perspective on political situations sometimes, if we ask for it, gives us guidance as to what we should say and do in certain situations. He protects his children also, though other times he allows us to go through things that seem pointless and bad, but which later on we come to see the benefit of. And as we learn to have more faith in him, we come closer to him and come to know him better.

[Aralyn]

Master Mothra he DID answer you. It was just no. I'm sorry about your wife though. And because I anticipate your next question (or maybe not) He didn't do it to be cruel. We all die someday. It was her time. (I was very upset when a close friend died and it was hard to know God cared and I know what i have said won't make it any better)

And to answer your other question. Although you didn't specifically ask me. Yes they will not enter the kingdom of Heaven because they have not accepted Christ as thier saviour

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Andúril
Is salvation a necessary corollary of the existence of a god or "divine" entity? It seems to me that you have begged this question.

We're taking this from a Christian vs. nonChristian perspective for the time being, as we haven't had people of other faiths here much.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
i thought god cared about us no matter what. when my wife was dying i sought god, i asked him to spare her life. i asked this every day for 5 months and i never received any response from god at all.

I knew about what happened with your wife already, and I really am very, very sorry that that happened. I can't give any response to that question of God's response on that issue, for I don't know the situation and don't think that my asking God would be very useful to you. Well . . . it might be useful, but I'm not inclined to be a voicebox. I would SO much prefer your coming to God yourself and asking him that question.

Originally posted by MasterMothra
im not ignoring you, i just dont agree with you. if you believe in the bible you have to believe some things to be true, i.e. the resurrection, jesus is the son of god, heaven and hell.

Yes, but those beliefs can be verified by experiences, and they also beliefs that are unvalidated can still have some basis in that the other beliefs that come from the same text have been validated. There are some things we just don't know yet. Plus, other Christians have had experiences with those areas to, such as having seen heaven or hell (Though I haven't). I have experienced other aspects of the same truth. Some people can accept certain things on faith, others have to have many things spelled out for them. I hate to admit it, but I tend to be one of the latter. God seems to be willing to work with that problem of unbelief on my part though anyway.

The thing is, you're assuming that when it says belief it means belief without any verification. Remember what happened with Gideon when God told him to lead the Israelites in defeating their oppressors? He questioned God and asked for evidence, and he received it. I have done the same thing before.

Originally posted by MasterMothra
if the christian account of god is true, then the people that do not believe that jesus is the son of god will not have everlasting life. muslims and jews do not share your version of jesus' divinity. so i ask you, are they doomed to not enter the kingdom of heaven?

I know that God sees to the heart and that all true righteousness comes from him. I do believe that Jesus is the way to the Father and to heaven, but I also know that there are people who will be in heaven that we won't expect to find there. God sees the spirit and acts with justice. My inclination is to believe that they won't enter the kingdom of heaven, for that is the plain interpretation of those scriptures. However, I am prepared to be corrected if I come upon a view that makes more sense to me. In the meantime, I think it covers all bases when it is said that God is just. So I am content with that.

[MasterMothra]

i will attempt a reply as soon as my internet connection allows it.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Virgil goes on to name Adam and the other Old Testament figures as having resided in the First Circle until Christ came to bear them to Heaven; I think that in Catholic doctrine it's also the home of babies who die before baptism.

It's not a place of torment- but it's definitely not Heaven either.

The Church doesn't officially have a doctine on what happens to babies when they die before they are baptized....some people believe they go to "limbo" but it's debatable.

[Rían]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
no Rian, what your missing is that i said i believe that christians can be open minded, just not as open minded as non-believers.

But I pointed out another option, namely that the truth CAN be know, that I think that non-believers are typically not open to. And Christians ARE open to the other possibilities that you listed - the difference is that they have made a choice as to what seems right. There is no virtue in refusing to decide between options if you think that one option is definitely the right way.

And again, what Lief has pointed out time and again is the relational aspect of Christianity. That's what leads the apostle Peter to say this, when many people start to leave Jesus after hearing some of the harder aspects of Christianity, and Jesus asks the disciples if they are going to leave, too - "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life." (John 6:68). And that's what I feel like, and I imagine Lief and Gwaimir and Wayfarer feel like - we have found Love and Life and Truth - it is found nowhere else and in nothing else but God.

I also like what one of Lewis' characters says when asked to leave God - "I am in Love, and out of it I will not go." She, as a Christian, is in Christ, and God is love - do you see the meaning there? She is literally in love, and will not leave Him. From First John 4:16 - "God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him." Why would I want to leave Love?

no, i believe that there is absolute truth. its pretty simple; either there is a god or there isnt a god. if there is a god, is he the god of the jews, muslims or christians? and answer me this if you will: if jesus is the only way to salvation, are the muslims and jews destined for hell?

I answered this extensively several times, at least to the best of my understanding - here's a link to the latest one: here. I have several other posts in this thread on that subject, IIRC, so if you're interested in my views, you can do a search with 'hell' and my name (I hope the 2 are not often associated together ).

i have found no consistancy in christianity or the bible. there is no independent evidence to support that jesus arose on the third day. no evidence at all that he is the son of god, and no evidence to support that god exist. the only evidence is faith, and what kind of evidence is that?

Well, this is too long to address now. Since you're going to finish Strobel's book, I suppose we can talk after that. Needless to say, I disagree.

However, when I say my faith has consistently proved true, I do not mean my life has been easy and fluffy. I mean that it has stood me firm thru thick and thin. The Christian life is NOT easy, because we are called to die to ourselves; but it is blessed, and we have great joy in it while here on earth, despite our trials, and the end will be an eternity in joy in the presence of God. (and actually, BTW, although it is not easy, I think it's MUCH easier than being a non-Christian, because we have the presence of God with us and helping us). From Luke 9:23-25 - "And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it. For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself?"

the meaning of life is what YOU make it, not what someone else tells you. of both those statements, evolution sounds more feasable to me than a god that makes his creations suffer without meaning. a god that loves his people so much that he would condemn them to an eternal life of hell and punishment without revealing himself to them.

I disagree with your first statement, and even more with the remaining sentences! I say that God does NOT make "his creations suffer without meaning", and that he would NOT "condemn them to an eternal life of hell and punishment without revealing himself to them." I think Lewis' book might help give you some understanding in this difficult area. I think your misunderstanding in this entire area of suffering revolves around an erroneous POV - in fact, let me just come right out and ask you - what do you think is the greatest good for a person? And as for the condemnation aspect - from Romans 1:20 - "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has ben made, so that they are without excuse." IOW, because God is just, He has provided for everyone enough evidence for them to make a fair decision.

[gimli7410]

catholic,caucasian,scotland,ireland,sweden

[Starr Polish]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
i thought god cared about us no matter what. when my wife was dying i sought god, i asked him to spare her life. i asked this every day for 5 months and i never received any response from god at all.

God does care about us. I did not know about your wife, and I am very, very sorry to hear about this.

The problem some people have is that when they pray in desperation, they don't always get what they want. God answers our prayers, but not always the way we wanted to. If your wife was suffering, perhaps He was answering her prayers to end what she was going through.