02-23-2003, 08:18 AM | #641 | |
Elf Lord
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The kindly master said"Do you not ask who are these spirits whom you see before you? I'd have you know before you go ahead, they did not sin; and yet though they have merits, that's not enough, because they lacked baptism, the portal of the faith that you embrace. And if they lived before Christianity, they did not worship God in fitting ways; and of such spirits I myself am one. For these defects and for no other evil, we now are lost and punished just with this: we have no hope and yet we live with longing. (Canto IV lines 31-42) The 'master' is the Roman poet Virgil, and the other inhabitants of Limbo are the great pagan writers and thinkers (Dante was a good Classicist). Virgil goes on to name Adam and the other Old Testament figures as having resided in the First Circle until Christ came to bear them to Heaven; I think that in Catholic doctrine it's also the home of babies who die before baptism. It's not a place of torment- but it's definitely not Heaven either.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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02-23-2003, 11:37 AM | #642 | |
Elf Lord
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According to the Roman Catholic Church (since Vatican II anyway), not necessarily, due to the doctrine of 'invincible ignorance' : "ignorance beyond the individual's control and for which, therefore, he is not responsible before God" (Hyperdictionary, 'ignorance') The argument is that it is obviously unjust to condemn someone for not accepting Jesus Christ if they've never heard of Him. Extending from that, if someone's background has so conditioned them that, in good faith, they can not accept the Church's message, they are held to be in the same condition- it applies to heretics (Protestants) too. It does NOT apply to apostates (like you and me, MasterMothra) who have rejected our faith. The catch is that you still have to live a good life and accept the principles of Natural Law, which are implanted in every human heart -and are indeed inherent in the Universe- and are discoverable by reason, but if you do that you can obtain salvation even without accepting Jesus. http://www.catholic-forum.com/commun...rary/117.shtml This seemed to be C.S. Lewis's view as well.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 02-23-2003 at 11:44 AM. |
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02-23-2003, 02:26 PM | #643 | ||
Elven Warrior
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the laws of conservation allow for change. Quote:
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"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. Last edited by MasterMothra : 02-23-2003 at 02:28 PM. |
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02-23-2003, 02:42 PM | #644 | |
Elf Lord
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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell |
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02-23-2003, 03:13 PM | #645 |
Elven Warrior
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i apologize, starr polish. i was not clear with that statement. what i meant to say was, if there is a one true god, what religion best represents his will? this is very important when it comes to the idea of salvation, and what is reqired for that salvation to occur.
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"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. |
02-23-2003, 03:23 PM | #646 | |
Elf Lord
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Or something to that effect. So she took the Bible and was born again. If you have trouble knowing why Christianity should be true when there are so many other religions, just ask God which one is true. If you seek him and he cares about you, he'll answer. Why do you always ignore me when I tell you Christianity isn't a belief system? |
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02-23-2003, 03:41 PM | #647 | |
The Original Corruptor
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02-23-2003, 03:42 PM | #648 |
FloraAzul
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I hate threads like this but I feel the need to point out a couple of misconceptions here
One) Some of you seem to think its a 'kissing up to god or else you go to hell thing' Well I can see where you get that but that's not really the point. God created us and then he sent his son to die for us. If someone offers to save your life you don't say no thanks i'd rather die! You accept it. That's all God does. He says, I saved you and love you come live with me. Not a hard choice. Two) This is sort of an elaboration on point one. Of course no one is perfect. You don't have to BE perfect. Just obey simple principles. Three) We seem to have some aethists here also and I would like to point out that there are a million things that have happened in our world that could not have happened by chance If you want to comment on this or PM me fine but please ask me nicely. I don't want to offend or anything just point out some things.
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Atheism: A Non-Prophet Organization Yet many shall be amazed when they see Him-yes even far off foreign nations and thier kings; they shall stand dumb-founded, speechless in his prescence. For they shall see and understand what they had not seen before-Isaiah 52:15a Civil War- 498,332 dead WWI-116,708 dead WWII-407,316 dead Korean War-54,246 dead Vietnam War-58,665 dead Persian Gulf-372 dead War on The Unborn=35,000,000 dead and counting |
02-23-2003, 03:42 PM | #649 | ||
Elven Warrior
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18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
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"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. |
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02-23-2003, 03:44 PM | #650 |
FloraAzul
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Also if you want advice on religion dont look on a website like this.
I challenge you to pray and research them. Seriously. Find out which ones match up to history exactly and tell the truth.
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Atheism: A Non-Prophet Organization Yet many shall be amazed when they see Him-yes even far off foreign nations and thier kings; they shall stand dumb-founded, speechless in his prescence. For they shall see and understand what they had not seen before-Isaiah 52:15a Civil War- 498,332 dead WWI-116,708 dead WWII-407,316 dead Korean War-54,246 dead Vietnam War-58,665 dead Persian Gulf-372 dead War on The Unborn=35,000,000 dead and counting |
02-23-2003, 03:48 PM | #651 | |||
Elven Warrior
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if the christian account of god is true, then the people that do not believe that jesus is the son of god will not have everlasting life. muslims and jews do not share your version of jesus' divinity. so i ask you, are they doomed to not enter the kingdom of heaven? john 3 Quote:
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"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. |
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02-23-2003, 03:57 PM | #652 | |
Elf Lord
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As for these other questions about Christianity, such as pain's existence, it would be a good idea to read the Problem of Pain, as R*an suggested. I'm actually going to read that too, hopefully starting next weekend. I've arranged to borrow it from a friend and I hope to gain some good insights from it . As I see it currently, God couldn't create free creations without free will, and free will automatically gives the possibility of evil. Even God can do evil; he simply never does because it isn't in his nature to do so. In his creations, he originally designed it so that it wouldn't be in their natures either. Satan changed that through commiting the first sins, pride and envy, and those led to all manner of the other sins. His originally pure nature fell into evil, and after that, contaminated with all manner of sins, he led humanity astray as well. Humanity also had its nature capable of evil, though originally innocent, for it wasn't in their nature to. Their first sins were just like Satan's, pride and envy when they thought to be like God. So sin originated from man and the devil, and it became a part of their nature. Thus sin, pain, all the evil that exists is currently man's and the devil's fault, not God's. On the contrary, God hates it and fights it hard (So hard that he sent his only son to die so that sin would be defeated). But he still permits free will. So that's my current perspective and it seems to me that the war with sin finally leads Christians into a greater final holiness then they originally possessed, even in the original creation state. That God would create the possibility of evil is the thing that you're questioning, whether giving us complete free will is right or not, or whether he should have made our free will limited. What you seem to be advocating is the limiting of free will for humanity's protection, and I can understand that. Why God made us with complete free will I don't completely understand and I hope to gain a more complete view on this subject from The Problem of Pain. However, I will say that whatever God's purpose in creating us with complete free will, it is possible to be set free from sin entirely, which shows that God does love us enough to open a door for us to escape from our own folly. And when we come through that door, we do become protected by God in a very neat way, for we are his children. And like any father, he looks after his children. He tells us when we are falling into sin, or falling short of his design for us, where we need to improve. He gives us his perspective on political situations sometimes, if we ask for it, gives us guidance as to what we should say and do in certain situations. He protects his children also, though other times he allows us to go through things that seem pointless and bad, but which later on we come to see the benefit of. And as we learn to have more faith in him, we come closer to him and come to know him better. |
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02-23-2003, 03:59 PM | #653 |
FloraAzul
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Master Mothra he DID answer you. It was just no. I'm sorry about your wife though. And because I anticipate your next question (or maybe not) He didn't do it to be cruel. We all die someday. It was her time. (I was very upset when a close friend died and it was hard to know God cared and I know what i have said won't make it any better)
And to answer your other question. Although you didn't specifically ask me. Yes they will not enter the kingdom of Heaven because they have not accepted Christ as thier saviour
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Atheism: A Non-Prophet Organization Yet many shall be amazed when they see Him-yes even far off foreign nations and thier kings; they shall stand dumb-founded, speechless in his prescence. For they shall see and understand what they had not seen before-Isaiah 52:15a Civil War- 498,332 dead WWI-116,708 dead WWII-407,316 dead Korean War-54,246 dead Vietnam War-58,665 dead Persian Gulf-372 dead War on The Unborn=35,000,000 dead and counting Last edited by Aralyn : 02-23-2003 at 05:21 PM. |
02-23-2003, 04:03 PM | #654 | |
Elf Lord
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02-23-2003, 04:18 PM | #655 | |||
Elf Lord
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The thing is, you're assuming that when it says belief it means belief without any verification. Remember what happened with Gideon when God told him to lead the Israelites in defeating their oppressors? He questioned God and asked for evidence, and he received it. I have done the same thing before. Quote:
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02-23-2003, 05:06 PM | #656 |
Elven Warrior
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i will attempt a reply as soon as my internet connection allows it.
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"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. |
02-23-2003, 06:33 PM | #657 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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02-23-2003, 07:25 PM | #658 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And again, what Lief has pointed out time and again is the relational aspect of Christianity. That's what leads the apostle Peter to say this, when many people start to leave Jesus after hearing some of the harder aspects of Christianity, and Jesus asks the disciples if they are going to leave, too - "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life." (John 6:68). And that's what I feel like, and I imagine Lief and Gwaimir and Wayfarer feel like - we have found Love and Life and Truth - it is found nowhere else and in nothing else but God. I also like what one of Lewis' characters says when asked to leave God - "I am in Love, and out of it I will not go." She, as a Christian, is in Christ, and God is love - do you see the meaning there? She is literally in love, and will not leave Him. From First John 4:16 - "God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him." Why would I want to leave Love? Quote:
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However, when I say my faith has consistently proved true, I do not mean my life has been easy and fluffy. I mean that it has stood me firm thru thick and thin. The Christian life is NOT easy, because we are called to die to ourselves; but it is blessed, and we have great joy in it while here on earth, despite our trials, and the end will be an eternity in joy in the presence of God. (and actually, BTW, although it is not easy, I think it's MUCH easier than being a non-Christian, because we have the presence of God with us and helping us). From Luke 9:23-25 - "And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it. For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself?" Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 02-23-2003 at 07:43 PM. |
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02-23-2003, 11:44 PM | #659 |
the dumb stoner canuck
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catholic,caucasian,scotland,ireland,sweden
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-"Down with the system"-Serj tankian of system of a down -“Humans have been on the earth for millions of years, yet we don’t believe man began thinking until he started building walls. And what good have these walls ever done us?”-Serj tankian of soad -"stupid people do stupid things"-Serj tankian of soad "Trying is the first step to failure" Homer Simpson "It isn't going to be easy"-jerseydevil "only the good die young" I AM CANADIAN If the people lead, the leaders will follow. |
02-23-2003, 11:45 PM | #660 | |
Elf Lord
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The problem some people have is that when they pray in desperation, they don't always get what they want. God answers our prayers, but not always the way we wanted to. If your wife was suffering, perhaps He was answering her prayers to end what she was going through.
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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell |
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