Tolkien's Languages - Page 33

Ruinel · 01-23-2004, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Falagar
Avarucin elyello! ElyÃ« quoruva mi sercelya.

BAHAHA!! meril!!!

CÃ¡rlya lantuva ve i ondo ho i ollo. Coivaltalya loico nauva apsa an i nyarror ar i corcor.

Falagar · 01-23-2004, 07:09 PM

An here's the rest of the poem:

When dawn came dim the land was lost,
The mountains sinking grey
Beyond the heaving waves that tossed
Their plumes of blinding spray

Ãre Ã¡ra nÃ©ca tulle vanwa nÃ© i nÃ³rÃ«,
Oronti sindÃ« sintala
I falmar rÃºmala pella i falastaner
Wingintar rosso silma

"When dawn dim came lost was the land
Mountains grey fading
The waves heaving beyond the shores
Their foam of spray glinting."

Amroth beheld the fading shores
Now low beyond the swell
And cursed the faithless ship that bore
Him far from Nimrodel

Amroth cennÃ« i sintala falasser
SÃ* falmar tumnÃ« pello
Ar sancÃ« ramanÃ« cirya Ãºvorondan
I collÃ« eryÃ« Nimrodello

"Amroth saw the fading shores
Now waves deep beyond
And hateful he shouted to the ship un-faithful
That bore him from Nimrodel"

Of old he was an Elven-king,
A lord of tree and glen,
When golden were the boughs in spring
In fair LothlÃ³rien.

YalÃºmessen aran quendion nÃ©[s],
Heru aldo ar nando
ÃrÃ« laurÃ«a nÃ©r i olwar tuliessÃ«
Mi LothlÃ³rien vanima

"In former times a king of elves [he] was
A lord of tree and of valley
When golden were the boughs in spring
Within LothlÃ³rien fair"

From helm to sea they saw him leap,
As arrow from the string,
And dive into the water deep
As mew upon the wing

Ciryallo Ã«arenna cennentes halta
VÃ« pilin ho i quinga
Ar vÃ¡nÃ« mir i nÃ©n tumna
VÃ« limba rÃ¡manna

"From ship into sea they saw him leap
Like an arrow from the bow
And he passed into the water deep
Like drop upon a wing"

The wind was in his flowing hair,
The foam about him shone
Afar they saw him strong and fair
Go riding like a swan

I sÃºre nÃ© mi findesse ÃºlÃ«arya
I wingÃ« topela eryÃ« sillÃ«
Vahaia cennentes tuo* ar vanima
Ve alqua ninquÃ« vÃ¡nÃ«

"The wind was within his flowing hair
The foam covering him shone
Far away they saw him strong and fair
Like a swan white passing"

But from the West has come no word
And on the Hither Shore
No tidings Elven-folk have heard
Of Amroth evermore.

Nan NÃºmello Ãº-quetta utÃºliÃ«
Ar i EntarassÃ«
OialÃ« Ãº-vinyar i EldaliÃ«
AhlÃ¡riÃ« Amrotho

"But from West no word has been heard
And in the Thither Lands
Forever no news Elven-folk
Have heard of Amroth"

OrnelÃrÃ« MistÃ« · 01-26-2004, 12:28 PM

Vanima. Nan:
....ÃrÃ« laurÃ«a nÃ©r i olwar tuliessÃ«
Mi LothlÃ³rien vanima

....When golden were the boughs in spring
Within LothlÃ³rien fair"
Shouldn't golden be plural?

Falagar · 01-26-2004, 04:31 PM

Indeed, should be lauriÃ«.

OrnelÃrÃ« MistÃ« · 02-01-2004, 09:24 PM

Amroth cennÃ« i sintala falasser
SÃ* falmar tumnÃ« pello
Ar sancÃ« ramanÃ« cirya Ãºvorondan
I collÃ« eryÃ« Nimrodello.

Is it falassi?

OrnelÃrÃ« MistÃ« · 02-29-2004, 05:23 PM

man nooresse ilyaquen naa?

Falagar · 02-29-2004, 06:30 PM

Isn't _ilquen_ better for 'everybody' (and wouldn't naa then become naar)?

Naan sinomÃ«, mal ilquen naar sÃ*vÃ«a...

***Valandil*** · 03-01-2004, 02:36 PM

Question from a non-speaker of Elvish: lists of Kings of Arnor and Gondor... are they in Quenya or Sindarin? I had thought the latter, but was told that 'Valandil' (first king in Arnor after Isildur) is Quenya. Or is it a mixed bag? Is there a clear point of change, if they're in BOTH languages? Are some of the names meant to be Westron, which I don't think JRRT totally developed?

Where is the best place to start with roots of words... for instance, to create names in a similar vein? The index at the back of Silmarillion?

Ruinel · 03-01-2004, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by OrnelÃ*rÃ« MistÃ«
man nooresse ilyaquen naa?

UtÃºlien.

LÃºmÃ« lelya ve i lassÃ« or i sÃ*rÃ«.

Ãº-ilquen tÃºlÃ« liassÃ«.

Ruinel · 03-01-2004, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Valandil
Question from a non-speaker of Elvish: lists of Kings of Arnor and Gondor... are they in Quenya or Sindarin? I had thought the latter, but was told that 'Valandil' (first king in Arnor after Isildur) is Quenya. Or is it a mixed bag? Is there a clear point of change, if they're in BOTH languages? Are some of the names meant to be Westron, which I don't think JRRT totally developed?

Where is the best place to start with roots of words... for instance, to create names in a similar vein? The index at the back of Silmarillion?

Good question, Atan.

Your name, Valandil means "Vala-friend" in Quenya.

"Arnor" means "royal land" in Quenya.
"Isildur" means "moon servant" in Quenya.

As for other names, I can't be sure of the answer. I'd like to say that important names were Quenya... being "High Elvish", as the Atani like to say.

***Valandil*** · 03-01-2004, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
Good question, Atan.

Your name, Valandil means "Vala-friend" in Quenya.

"Arnor" means "royal land" in Quenya.
"Isildur" means "moon servant" in Quenya.

As for other names, I can't be sure of the answer. I'd like to say that important names were Quenya... being "High Elvish", as the Atani like to say.

Yes... you indeed were the very one who told me the origins of my name before... and I thank you, oh wonderful Elf Lady!

*hopes 'Atan' isn't TOO condescending, since Ruinel has now called him by this twice today... understands the denotation is 'man' - but wonders if connotation is along the lines of 'little one' or 'grasshopper'*

***Earniel*** · 03-01-2004, 03:29 PM

Oh, good this thread has resurfaced again. I just happen to have two things I want to ask the experts.

The first one would be the origin of the name 'Nimrodel'. The Elf or the river, I don't remember which was named first. 'nim' I take it refers to white. But it's the other part of the name that I can't figure out.

As for my second question, is 'maew' an elfish word for gull? I can't for my life remember where I picked it up (I can't seem to be able to find it in the indexes in my books either) but the idea is very persistant.

Ruinel · 03-01-2004, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Valandil
Yes... you indeed were the very one who told me the origins of my name before... and I thank you, oh wonderful Elf Lady!

*hopes 'Atan' isn't TOO condescending, since Ruinel has now called him by this twice today... understands the denotation is 'man' - but wonders if connotation is along the lines of 'little one' or 'grasshopper'*

Atani is the name of "Men" in Quenya.. it is not condescending in any way, just like Quendi is not condescending. It is only the name of your 'race'.

If anyone calls you ApanÃ³na or ApanÃ³nar ... that's not so nice. It means "after born" and it's quite condescending.

Ruinel · 03-01-2004, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EÃ¤rniel
Oh, good this thread has resurfaced again. I just happen to have two things I want to ask the experts.

The first one would be the origin of the name 'Nimrodel'. The Elf or the river, I don't remember which was named first. 'nim' I take it refers to white. But it's the other part of the name that I can't figure out.

As for my second question, is 'maew' an elfish word for gull? I can't for my life remember where I picked it up (I can't seem to be able to find it in the indexes in my books either) but the idea is very persistant.

MaiwÃ« is Quenya for 'gull', and maew is Sindarin.

Nimrodel... from the back of the Silmarillion...
nim = white, but this must be Sindarin because 'white' in Quenya is ninquÃ«.

Nimrodel means.. "Lady of the White Grotto". The river was named after her.

***Earniel*** · 03-01-2004, 06:55 PM

Thank you!

I still don't know where I got 'maew' from but at least I got it right.

Ruinel · 03-02-2004, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by EÃ¤rniel
Thank you!

I still don't know where I got 'maew' from but at least I got it right.

cool

Ruinel · 03-02-2004, 11:49 AM

I need some assistance. Has anyone run across a word that would satisfy the word 'alliance'? As in the 'Alliance of Men and Elves'.

I'm trying to complete this sentence...
CarÃ« cilmelya an CÃ¡no i [alliance] an Atani ar Quendi.

***Earniel*** · 03-06-2004, 05:54 AM

What would be the plural of maiwÃ« and maew?

I think this article may be of interest to you Elvish scholars.

OrnelÃrÃ« MistÃ« · 03-12-2004, 10:18 PM

Ruinel, as for alliance, I looked up the entymology (?) and it apparently comes from "to bind". Upon searching the wordlists, I found:

BIND (see TIE); in more abstract sense: avalerya- (make fast, restrain, deprive of liberty)

TIE nut- (1st person aorst nutin "I tie")

Then looking at Quenya affixes, I found:
-Ã« combined with lengthening of the stem-vowel is used to derive what is properly verbal nouns. Sometimes the sense of the derived words drifts from pure abstract to the more concrete, denoting an object or phenomenon that is produced by the corresponding verb: nut- "tie", nÃºtÃ« "knot" (etymologically *"tying?"), lir- "sing", *lÃ*rÃ« "song" (etymologically *"singing"; the word is asterisked because it is only attested in the instrumental case: lÃ*rinen); cf. also sÃ*rÃ« "river" (etymologically "flowing") from sir- "flow". This method of derivation seems to be limited to basic verbal stems of the pattern (consonant-)vowel-consonant. But the ending -Ã« may also be used to derive abstract nouns from adjectives in -a: aira "holy", airÃ« "sanctity" (PM:363).
In fact, that example gives "knot". Perhaps this would work? Other abstract endings are -le, -me, -ie... Fixed the spacing!

ALSO- Valandil, all the names are in fact Quenya.

cian · 03-16-2004, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Valandil
Question from a non-speaker of Elvish: lists of Kings of Arnor and Gondor... are they in Quenya or Sindarin? I had thought the latter, but was told that 'Valandil' (first king in Arnor after Isildur) is Quenya. Or is it a mixed bag? Is there a clear point of change, if they're in BOTH languages?

The lists include both Quenya and Sindarin. Appendix A footnotes that after Earendur the Kings no longer took names in High-elven (Quenya) form, for example -- see also regarding names after the mention of Mardil Voronwe (Ruling Steward).

Appendix F relates that the name Nimrodel (the meaning of which has already been posted, as published in UT) is probably of Silvan origin, adapted to Sindarin.

Â¤

01-23-2004, 07:09 PM	#642
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	An here's the rest of the poem: When dawn came dim the land was lost, The mountains sinking grey Beyond the heaving waves that tossed Their plumes of blinding spray Ãre Ã¡ra nÃ©ca tulle vanwa nÃ© i nÃ³rÃ«, Oronti sindÃ« sintala I falmar rÃºmala pella i falastaner Wingintar rosso silma "When dawn dim came lost was the land Mountains grey fading The waves heaving beyond the shores Their foam of spray glinting." Amroth beheld the fading shores Now low beyond the swell And cursed the faithless ship that bore Him far from Nimrodel Amroth cennÃ« i sintala falasser SÃ* falmar tumnÃ« pello Ar sancÃ« ramanÃ« cirya Ãºvorondan I collÃ« eryÃ« Nimrodello "Amroth saw the fading shores Now waves deep beyond And hateful he shouted to the ship un-faithful That bore him from Nimrodel" Of old he was an Elven-king, A lord of tree and glen, When golden were the boughs in spring In fair LothlÃ³rien. YalÃºmessen aran quendion nÃ©[s], Heru aldo ar nando ÃrÃ« laurÃ«a nÃ©r i olwar tuliessÃ« Mi LothlÃ³rien vanima "In former times a king of elves [he] was A lord of tree and of valley When golden were the boughs in spring Within LothlÃ³rien fair" From helm to sea they saw him leap, As arrow from the string, And dive into the water deep As mew upon the wing Ciryallo Ã«arenna cennentes halta VÃ« pilin ho i quinga Ar vÃ¡nÃ« mir i nÃ©n tumna VÃ« limba rÃ¡manna "From ship into sea they saw him leap Like an arrow from the bow And he passed into the water deep Like drop upon a wing" The wind was in his flowing hair, The foam about him shone Afar they saw him strong and fair Go riding like a swan I sÃºre nÃ© mi findesse ÃºlÃ«arya I wingÃ« topela eryÃ« sillÃ« Vahaia cennentes tuo* ar vanima Ve alqua ninquÃ« vÃ¡nÃ« "The wind was within his flowing hair The foam covering him shone Far away they saw him strong and fair Like a swan white passing" But from the West has come no word And on the Hither Shore No tidings Elven-folk have heard Of Amroth evermore. Nan NÃºmello Ãº-quetta utÃºliÃ« Ar i EntarassÃ« OialÃ« Ãº-vinyar i EldaliÃ« AhlÃ¡riÃ« Amrotho "But from West no word has been heard And in the Thither Lands Forever no news Elven-folk Have heard of Amroth" __________________ FÃ«anor - Innocence incarnated Still, AikanÃ¡ro 'till the Last battle.

01-26-2004, 12:28 PM	#643
OrnelÃrÃ« MistÃ« Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 482	Vanima. Nan: ....ÃrÃ« laurÃ«a nÃ©r i olwar tuliessÃ« Mi LothlÃ³rien vanima ....When golden were the boughs in spring Within LothlÃ³rien fair" Shouldn't golden be plural? __________________ "Lot of people say this city looks like Hell," Allie said. She took a long drag from her cigarette. The glowing tip burned a hole in the darkness. "Most people never been to Hell," Jacob said. She looked at him and he could hear the smile in her voice. "And I suppose you have?"

01-26-2004, 04:31 PM	#644
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	Indeed, should be lauriÃ«. __________________ FÃ«anor - Innocence incarnated Still, AikanÃ¡ro 'till the Last battle.

02-01-2004, 09:24 PM	#645
OrnelÃrÃ« MistÃ« Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 482	Amroth cennÃ« i sintala falasser SÃ* falmar tumnÃ« pello Ar sancÃ« ramanÃ« cirya Ãºvorondan I collÃ« eryÃ« Nimrodello. Is it falassi? __________________ "Lot of people say this city looks like Hell," Allie said. She took a long drag from her cigarette. The glowing tip burned a hole in the darkness. "Most people never been to Hell," Jacob said. She looked at him and he could hear the smile in her voice. "And I suppose you have?"

02-29-2004, 05:23 PM	#646
OrnelÃrÃ« MistÃ« Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 482	man nooresse ilyaquen naa? __________________ "Lot of people say this city looks like Hell," Allie said. She took a long drag from her cigarette. The glowing tip burned a hole in the darkness. "Most people never been to Hell," Jacob said. She looked at him and he could hear the smile in her voice. "And I suppose you have?"

02-29-2004, 06:30 PM	#647
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	Isn't _ilquen_ better for 'everybody' (and wouldn't naa then become naar)? Naan sinomÃ«, mal ilquen naar sÃvÃ«a... __________________ FÃ«anor - Innocence incarnated* Still, AikanÃ¡ro 'till the Last battle.

03-01-2004, 02:36 PM	#648
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	Question from a non-speaker of Elvish: lists of Kings of Arnor and Gondor... are they in Quenya or Sindarin? I had thought the latter, but was told that 'Valandil' (first king in Arnor after Isildur) is Quenya. Or is it a mixed bag? Is there a clear point of change, if they're in BOTH languages? Are some of the names meant to be Westron, which I don't think JRRT totally developed? Where is the best place to start with roots of words... for instance, to create names in a similar vein? The index at the back of Silmarillion? __________________ My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ã‘ Ã¡ Ã« ?* Ã³ Ãº Ã© Ã¤ Ã¯ Ã¶ Ã– Ã± Ã‰ Ãž Ã° ÃŸ Â® â„¢ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!

03-01-2004, 03:29 PM	#652
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Oh, good this thread has resurfaced again. I just happen to have two things I want to ask the experts. The first one would be the origin of the name 'Nimrodel'. The Elf or the river, I don't remember which was named first. 'nim' I take it refers to white. But it's the other part of the name that I can't figure out. As for my second question, is 'maew' an elfish word for gull? I can't for my life remember where I picked it up (I can't seem to be able to find it in the indexes in my books either) but the idea is very persistant. __________________ We are not things.

03-01-2004, 06:55 PM	#655
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Thank you! I still don't know where I got 'maew' from but at least I got it right. __________________ We are not things.

03-02-2004, 11:49 AM	#657
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	I need some assistance. Has anyone run across a word that would satisfy the word 'alliance'? As in the 'Alliance of Men and Elves'. I'm trying to complete this sentence... CarÃ« cilmelya an CÃ¡no i [alliance] an Atani ar Quendi.

03-06-2004, 05:54 AM	#658
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	What would be the plural of maiwÃ« and maew? I think this article may be of interest to you Elvish scholars. __________________ We are not things.

03-12-2004, 10:18 PM	#659
OrnelÃrÃ« MistÃ« Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 482	Ruinel, as for alliance, I looked up the entymology (?) and it apparently comes from "to bind". Upon searching the wordlists, I found: BIND (see TIE); in more abstract sense: avalerya- (make fast, restrain, deprive of liberty) TIE nut- (1st person aorst nutin "I tie") Then looking at Quenya affixes, I found: -Ã« combined with lengthening of the stem-vowel is used to derive what is properly verbal nouns. Sometimes the sense of the derived words drifts from pure abstract to the more concrete, denoting an object or phenomenon that is produced by the corresponding verb: nut- "tie", nÃºtÃ« "knot" (etymologically "tying?"), lir- "sing", lÃrÃ« "song" (etymologically "singing"; the word is asterisked because it is only attested in the instrumental case: lÃrinen); cf. also sÃrÃ« "river" (etymologically "flowing") from sir- "flow". This method of derivation seems to be limited to basic verbal stems of the pattern (consonant-)vowel-consonant. But the ending -Ã« may also be used to derive abstract nouns from adjectives in -a: aira "holy", airÃ« "sanctity" (PM:363). In fact, that example gives "knot". Perhaps this would work? Other abstract endings are -le, -me, -ie... Fixed the spacing! ALSO- Valandil, all the names are in fact Quenya. __________________ "Lot of people say this city looks like Hell," Allie said. She took a long drag from her cigarette. The glowing tip burned a hole in the darkness. "Most people never been to Hell," Jacob said. She looked at him and he could hear the smile in her voice. "And I suppose you have?" Last edited by OrnelÃrÃ« MistÃ« : 03-15-2004 at 09:44 PM.

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