02-15-2006, 06:02 PM | #641 | |
Elf Lord
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Does that apply across the brotherhood of humanity or does it mean within Islam? the phrase "the Muslims constitute one brotherhood" is delimiting isn't it? And note that superiority is possible "by piety and good action." So, if Islam is the only religion and one is Islamic, one is superior. This is certainly the case in Islamic countries where Christians and other religions are second class, not allowed freedom of worship, not allowed to evangelize, taxed, and constant objects of attack. The are denied political rights and forced to live under Sharia when not Muslim. So, some are more superior than others on the basis of piety and practice. Beware of reading western values into these statements. Look at the practice in Islamic countries.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 02-15-2006 at 06:04 PM. |
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02-15-2006, 06:11 PM | #642 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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You mean you yourself have read the Bible! ...yeah, well I have too. I know perfectly well that the bible does not contain all flowery prose and good ole advice like James Allen or Tolstoy. It is scary. Killing 'justified', in the bible, is always when in a war. Nowhere will you find that you should "slew thy brother" for ANY reason. God didn't let David get away with the order to kill the man, whose wife he wanted. Cain didn't get away (only literally) with murdering his brother. To "do battle" is justified though.
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02-15-2006, 06:11 PM | #643 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-15-2006, 06:13 PM | #644 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-15-2006, 06:17 PM | #645 | |
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Is there a distinction? Or is there MUCH of a distinction? As an atheist, you may be used to trying to see a distinction. However, as you can plainly see, Women wear veils and such for religious reasons, and it has been around for a long time, so it IS A CULTURAL THING AS WELL. People don't just sit down, undogmatically and decide what idiosyncrasies to practice just for the hell of it. Culture always reflects beliefs.
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02-15-2006, 06:19 PM | #646 | |
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02-15-2006, 07:46 PM | #647 |
Enting
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I also dissagre muslums are iteresting people but not savage
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02-16-2006, 05:19 AM | #648 | |
Elf Lord
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http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0...tosinquiz.html |
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02-16-2006, 10:39 AM | #649 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-16-2006, 11:12 AM | #650 |
Elf Lord
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Insidious Rex, I've responded to two of your points now in the Religious Knowledge thread. I look forward to your response.
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02-16-2006, 11:26 AM | #651 |
Elf Lord
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Hypocrisy?
I think the West (this is a generalization) may be very hypocritical. Europe has expressed its support for the legality of the cartoons, yet many countries in the European Union have established laws against Holocaust denial. Isn't this saying, "freedom to insult Muslims and enrage them is acceptable, but freedom to insult the Jews and enrage Westerners and Israelis is not acceptable."
Because of our Western mentality, we view Holocaust denial as much worse and much more serious than cartoon publishing. From the Eastern mentality, things look very different. I think we may be being very hypocritical to accept the cartoon publishing while imprisoning people for Holocaust denial. Some on this thread have said the Muslims are simply being "big babies" over something that is "no big deal." That is simply a Western perspective talking to an Eastern one, and not understanding the other side's point of view. I think Holocaust denial is horrible and disgraceful, but I don't know how we can justify banning it because of our beliefs while we allow cartoons published in spite of Muslim beliefs. Clearly, in our view there are some boundaries to free speech. Where should those boundaries lie, however? Or should there be any? Should our free speech boundaries exclude only those issues that are serious to us in the West, while permitting what is serious to vast numbers of people in the East? I think we may be playing double standard. Where exactly should the boundary be laid, between what is allowed and what is not, or should the boundary be laid at all?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
02-16-2006, 12:09 PM | #652 | ||
Elf Lord
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If there's hypocrisy here, it's of the Muslim countries. As if they had never drawn any cartoons about Jesus of the Holocaust. Quote:
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02-16-2006, 12:36 PM | #653 |
Elf Lord
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In the UK, this issue is framed around the definition of race versus religion. i.e. it is illegal to incite hatred on the basis of race (being something that a person has no control over).
So, Jews are a race; Muslims aren't. Therefore you can't incite hatred against Jews, but in theory you can against Muslims (witness Nick Griffin, leader of the far-right British National Party, who got off on this technicality: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4671026.stm). This has led to a perception of inequality which Bliar tried to rectify with an "incitement to religious hatred" law. Thankfully, this was ditched by Parliament (by one vote!). I say thankfully because such a law would be mis/used by the more foaming-mouthed amongst us to repress dissent. This incident with the cartoons should serve to underline that fact: legislating in this area only plays into the hands of the numpties. So anyway, race seems like a good line along which to draw this kind of thing. Race is immutable, and we know that it's the basis of prejudice, so we should do something to protect it. Religion is about belief, so we should slag it off at will. However, there is no accounting for being a complete idiot, which is why all of the editors of these newspapers should get the sack. Last edited by The Gaffer : 02-16-2006 at 12:39 PM. |
02-16-2006, 12:45 PM | #654 | ||
Elf Lord
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If we are going to curtail freedom of speech in this area, an area that offends the sensibilities of hundreds of millions of us, yet allow things that evoke the same reaction in hundreds of millions of others, that looks like hypocrisy. It's a Western mentality that says, "Holocaust denial is far worse than cartoon insults." That's a Western perspective. Not necessarily wrong, but certainly Western and Israeli. Meanwhile, in the Middle East, countless others would reverse the priorities and say, "cartoon insults that disrespect God are worse than claims that insult the memory of millions of humans."
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-16-2006, 02:02 PM | #655 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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02-16-2006, 02:05 PM | #656 | ||
An enigma in a conundrum
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Quote:
A cartoon depicting a *prophet* whose image isn't supposed to be shown can hardly be put in the same arena as making fun of the deaths of millions.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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02-16-2006, 02:35 PM | #657 |
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...according to you. According to many muslims the lives of mere humans (including their own) pales in comparison with mocking The Prophet or god. Again... its a cultural perspective that both sides have a hard time comprehending.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
02-16-2006, 02:40 PM | #658 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-16-2006, 03:14 PM | #659 | |
Enting
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There are those in the world who do not understand that our time is limited and so they wast it but in the end when they stand before god the will realize what a mistake they made. |
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02-16-2006, 03:16 PM | #660 | |
Enting
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There are those in the world who do not understand that our time is limited and so they wast it but in the end when they stand before god the will realize what a mistake they made. |
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