08-10-2010, 01:36 PM | #641 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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08-10-2010, 02:30 PM | #642 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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It's not control; not sanctioning gay marriages is a form of governmental inaction. It seems to me (as an outsider, I admit) that libertarian values would better fit the abolition of marriage as an institution of the state altogether, than the extension of the boundaries of that institution.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
08-10-2010, 11:10 PM | #643 |
Elf Lord
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The state has a vested interest in the orderly devolution of property and responsibility for offspring. Why should it change historical and biological realities to suit a few narcissists is beyond me. It's not uniformity under law they want, which they have with civil unions, it is the word and societal respect accorded to marriage. "Equality, bah, give me what I want and the rest of society be damned along with me." And as the judge hesitates not to create truthiness as the "basis" of his "opinion" we see the narcissists winning.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
08-11-2010, 01:10 AM | #644 | ||
Elf Lord
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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08-11-2010, 01:14 AM | #645 | ||
Elf Lord
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Or are you saying gay people don't have property, or shouldn't be allowed to decide who they want to pass it onto?
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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08-11-2010, 12:59 PM | #646 | |
Word Santa Claus
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Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
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08-12-2010, 05:08 PM | #647 |
Elf Lord
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GM, your rhetorical question is a bit absurd, but I shall answer it.
Yes gays do have property. NO, gays do not have children - there is that egg/sperm thingy again, and biology. They may adopt them, they may borrow eggs, they may borrow sperm, they may borrow uteruses or penises - but they emphatically do not have them in the biological sense of reproduction. The state has interest in property. The state has interest in children. Unless of course the state combines the interest and makes children merely property for the accessorizing of relationships. Clearer? Or did you miss the relationship to state regulation in different areas might have similar principles operative which are not limited to the alleged "rights" as opposed to the best interests of children?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
08-13-2010, 12:07 AM | #648 | |
Elf Lord
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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08-13-2010, 12:26 AM | #649 |
Elf Lord
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Latest opinion polls:
The age difference is to be expected- opposition is literally dying out. The gender gap is surprising- I'd say pretty clear evidence that a lot of the opposition is based on manly men getting all squirmy at the thought of teh gays- "Support gay marriage?-hey, I ain't no fruit!" CNN/OPINION RESEARCH CORPORATION POLL -- AUG 6 to 10, 2010 Question 37A Do you think gays and lesbians should have a constitutional right to get married and have their marriage recognized by law as valid? For .........52% Against....46% Age:.......under 50........50+ For ............61%..........41% Against......39% ..........56% Sex: .........Women........Men For..............67%..........37% Against........32%..........61% http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/im...1/rel11a1a.pdf
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 08-13-2010 at 12:32 AM. |
08-13-2010, 06:56 AM | #650 |
Elf Lord
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Interesting gender difference in that poll.
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08-13-2010, 01:34 PM | #651 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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That's certainly one aspect of the sex disparity. Of course, there are many factors which contribute; another is the desire, widespread among American women, to be a "fag hag" (generally attributed to Will and Grace).
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
08-13-2010, 05:51 PM | #652 |
Elf Lord
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AH, here's and interesting judicial twist in logic to correlate with Walker's allegations of findings of fact:
The federal judge who overturned California's same-sex marriage ban has more bad news for the measure's sponsors: he not only is unwilling to keep gay couples from marrying beyond next Wednesday, he doubts the ban's backers have the right to challenge his ruling. "Chief U.S. District Judge Vaughn R. Walker on Thursday rejected a request to delay his decision striking down Proposition 8 from taking effect until high courts can take up an appeal lodged by its supporters. One of the reasons, the judge said, is he's not sure the proponents have the authority to appeal since they would not be affected by or responsible for implementing his ruling. By contrast, same-sex couples are being denied their constitutional rights every day they are prohibited from marrying, Walker said. The ban's backers "point to harm resulting from a 'cloud of uncertainty' surrounding the validity of marriages performed after judgment is entered but before proponents' appeal is resolved," he said. "Proponents have not, however, argued that any of them seek to wed a same-sex spouse."" You cannot appeal a law because you disagree with it even in a court setting and following normal procedure. Good one for illogic, that.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
08-13-2010, 06:22 PM | #653 |
Word Santa Claus
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Actually, that's a well-established precedent; it's called "standing," and it reflects the idea that simply disagreeing with a decision or a law is insufficient to allow you to bring a legal claim. There must be actual harm to you.
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08-13-2010, 09:55 PM | #654 | |
Best Ex-Administrator ever
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If you ever get round to reading your own post you'll see the Judge explain that the bigots don't "have the authority to appeal since they would not be affected by or responsible for implementing his ruling." |
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08-15-2010, 01:55 AM | #655 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I just came across some interesting thoughts on same-sex marriage from an Anglo-Catholic priest in a long term relationship with another man. This fellow's not a philosopher or anything, so his thoughts aren't as organized as they could be and are certainly flawed, but he brings up some ideas and parallels that, at least from a traditionally Christian point of view, are interesting, and attempt to provide an account of how it's possible to disagree with same-sex marriage without being homophobic or negative about gays and gay relationships. Certainly, this doesn't constitute real, substantial argument, but hopefully it can at least provide food for thought from a perspective other than the stereotypical poles that tend to define these discussions:
Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 08-15-2010 at 01:57 AM. |
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08-15-2010, 03:43 AM | #656 |
Elf Lord
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like to read more--link, please
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
08-15-2010, 12:38 PM | #657 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I found it in an article trying to explain anecdotally the strong gay presence in Anglo-Catholicism; this particular line of thought wasn't something that was really developed in the rest of the article. Here is the link, but you might not be able to download the full text without a university account. If not, feel free to PM me, and I can e-mail it you.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 08-15-2010 at 05:38 PM. |
08-16-2010, 08:58 AM | #658 |
Elf Lord
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No, that's okay, I can see what he's getting at- was reading it the wrong way round the first time.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
08-16-2010, 09:08 AM | #659 |
Elf Lord
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More on standing:
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/amar/20100813.html The case, after all, is Perry v. Schwarzenegger, so the defendants should have been either Gov. Arnold or State Attorney-General Jerry Brown; niether of them chose to contest it, and neither will appeal. Since the Governator is retiring, he's pretty well immune to the wrath of the voters, but they have a clear choice between Whitman and Brown on this issue.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
09-08-2010, 10:35 PM | #660 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I have recently come across the archive of a blog called Dreadnought, which is basically about what it means to be a "gay, faithful Catholic." I find the fellow to be quite cogent, and he often resonates with my own views; at any rate, it may be for some interesting resource, to help understand under-represented viewpoints.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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