Theological Opinions

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by inked

If any man would be saved, he must believe on the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ. See John 20:28.

Could he still be a Christian, but just going straight to hell? [/half-joking] Does this imply non-Christians cannot be saved? What if someone never heard the Word of God? That's hardly their fault, why would God punish them?

Originally Posted by inked

psst - Check out your PB!

I have emptied my inbox. (Don't you wish you could do that to your inbox at work? Just flush it when it gets full? )

[Rían]

Originally Posted by inked

If any man would be saved, he must believe on the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ. See John 20:28.

Were Abraham and David saved, IYO?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Were Abraham and David saved, IYO?

I think there's a scripture that talks about some of the OT people being saved by believing in the promises that point toward the Christ. Just mentioning. I know there is also the scripture that says that when Gentiles do by nature what is written in the law, they are a law unto themselves. That scripture seems to imply that some might be unaware of Jesus, yet be saved.

I really do think that only those who believe in Jesus will be saved. He said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." However, there also is are a couple scriptures that seem to imply that some people might be saved after death. So there's another aspect. There also is the aspect that Jesus actually has revealed himself to lots and lots of people, without them having a Christian witness. In Muslim countries, there have been tens of thousands of accounts of people coming to Christ through visions, dreams and hearing words from God supernaturally. I heard a story also of a village once, which encountered God without a missionary. God spoke to the villagers and converted them, and gave them word for word the entire Gospel of Matthew. Missionaries eventually came to the small jungle settlement and were astounded at the story they were told by the Christian inhabitants. Anyway . . . there have been loads of accounts of God just revealing himself to people as Jesus, without a missionary and often without them knowing anything about Jesus or the Bible.

I personally don't have a firm understanding of all the ins and outs of Jesus bringing people to himself. My personal thought is that people must believe in Jesus, whether it's in this life or after death, in order to be saved. Perhaps some can actually believe in him without knowing his name. I don't know, but the scripture with the Gentiles seemed to imply it. So there are some of my current thoughts based upon people's experiences and the scriptures, though I don't have so strong a grip on this part of Christian theology as I would wish. I'm glad you brought it up, Nurv.

I will say that someone who doesn't believe Jesus is the Son of God doesn't seem to be a Christian.

[inked]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Were Abraham and David saved, IYO?

Yep. The Work of Christ was eternal. It therefore applied, in human terms both retroactively and proactively and future-actively. That's the whole point of the God-Man thingy in theology. If Jesus' work had been merely human, He was just a nice man who died for his "ideas" (which were rather demanding that He was, in fact, YHWH incarnate). If He was only God, He had no means of communicating eternal reality to humanity. He was "thoroughly God and thoroughly Man" so His work would be able to effect salvation of the whole creation. (Cf. the Athanasian Creed and the Definition of Chalcedon and the Nicene Creed and the Apostles' Creed etc.)

Gloria patri et filii et spiritu sancti ad infinitium ad aeternum!

[Spock]

....shouldn't you be wearing a cassock?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by inked

Yep. The Work of Christ was eternal. It therefore applied, in human terms both retroactively and proactively and future-actively. That's the whole point of the God-Man thingy in theology. If Jesus' work had been merely human, He was just a nice man who died for his "ideas" (which were rather demanding that He was, in fact, YHWH incarnate). If He was only God, He had no means of communicating eternal reality to humanity. He was "thoroughly God and thoroughly Man" so His work would be able to effect salvation of the whole creation. (Cf. the Athanasian Creed and the Definition of Chalcedon and the Nicene Creed and the Apostles' Creed etc.)

Gloria patri et filii et spiritu sancti ad infinitium ad aeternum!

I mean in light of the verse you quoted - could you elaborate?

(n.b. - I pretty much believe what Lief describes, too)

[Nurvingiel]

And it came to me in a vision that I should make two posts by mistake.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I will say that someone who doesn't believe Jesus is the Son of God doesn't seem to be a Christian.

Yes, it would seem that way.


Thanks for all your thoughtful posts you guys. I hope this discussion continues. The reason I asked about Jesus, is because even though I believe in Jesus and His teachings, I don't know if I really believe He is the Son of God.

I mean, if pressed, I am not sure what I believe. I'm not sure. But I certainly feel like a Christian, especially culturally.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

The reason I asked about Jesus, is because even though I believe in Jesus and His teachings, I don't know if I really believe He is the Son of God.

christian to me would be living by a certain sense of ideals... so i don't think it really matters whether he was or was not as long as you embrace thoe ideals

of course, what do i know?

[inked]

Originally Posted by Spock

....shouldn't you be wearing a cassock?

Now, Spock, should someone using elevated words like "thingy" be allowed in a cassock? White or black? Or liturgically tricked out for the season?

[inked]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I mean in light of the verse you quoted - could you elaborate?

(n.b. - I pretty much believe what Lief describes, too)

Rian,

Thomas had been a disciple and knew Jesus' teachings about Himself and His claims first-hand. Yet, when he missed the appearance on Easter evening inthe Upper Room, true empiricist that he was, Thomas said, "I will not believe until I put my finger in the nailprints and His side." Yet when Jesus entered the Upper Room a week later and offered Thomas exactly the opportunity, Thomas immediately confesses Jesus' identity with God and does so in an intensely personal manner ... "My Lord and My God."

I believe in the "particular judgement", that at the moment of death the individual soul is in the Presence of God and has the opportunity to say to God, "Thy will be done" or to hear from God, "thy will be done." The opportunity for the application of Christ's eternal salvific work is accorded to every person, who chooses to accept or reject that accomplished salvation. (One may say "My Lord and my God," or one may refuse to so do.) I do not propose to state how that application is made in the event, but I do affirm with the catholic belief that human choice matters. God does not force, He woos. Free will matters, and it matters ultimately.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

christian to me would be living by a certain sense of ideals... so i don't think it really matters whether he was or was not as long as you embrace thoe ideals

of course, what do i know?

Hee. I like your style Brownie.

Is Christianity beliefs you hold or actions you take? If it's the latter, what actious should a Christian take? This seems like something I'd be better at. Unless it's going to Church, I haven't done that in years. I'm just a terrible Christian aren't I!

What is a cossack and why is Inked wearing one? (I thought a Cossack was a person from somewhere. )

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Hee. I like your style Brownie.

Is Christianity beliefs you hold or actions you take? If it's the latter, what actious should a Christian take? This seems like something I'd be better at. Unless it's going to Church, I haven't done that in years. I'm just a terrible Christian aren't I!

The book of James has some good words on the subject of deeds and faith. We are saved by faith alone, but as James says in Chapter 2 of the book named after him, "faith without deeds is dead." And he says, "I will show you my faith by what I do!" Those deeds James is talking about largely are just doing good to others. It's not about going to a church building or speaking ceremonial prayers. Loving God and loving one's neighbor (and that neighbor is every person alive) is central. According to Jesus, those teachings encompass all the Law and the Prophets.

In Romans 10:9-10 it says, "If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

Let's see . . . There's more I want to say. A good deal more . When someone believes, that person has been born anew in Christ. Christ himself has entered that person and made his home in that person. This is the only reason we can become righteous: he is making us righteous. He can accomplish things inside his followers that they could not do for themselves. For example, some people upon being Born Again have been miraculously cured of various addictions, like gluttony, smoking, sexual immorality or other, things that they really had no control over. A few years ago, in a single rather dramatic evening, the Lord cured my grandmother of alcohol addiction, doing something for her that she couldn't do for herself. Of course, his making Christians righteousness doesn't always happen in such dramatic flourishes. My main point in bringing up some examples of the dramatic is to point out that it really is an active, real God who does some of these things in us when we are Born Again and in a relationship with him, rather than us choosing to do these things of our own painful resolution. Painful resolution sometimes is necessary, to be sure. But Christ is the lead-man in sanctifying his followers.

In my view, the most glorious, the most fun, the most thrilling part of Christianity comes after having believed and confessed. You know what Pentecost was, correct? The experience the disciples had in Chapter 2 of Acts? Well, that was the turning point. That was the unbelievable change. The experience the Christians had in the Book of Acts is available to us still. When the Holy Spirit came to his followers in glory, he was among them permanently. Mmm, I love that fact. I love how Jesus said, "I will not leave you as orphans," and in another place, "I am with you, to the end of the age." He promised to be with us permanently, and permanently he is with us! In a REAL way, not a mere structural belief system. In Acts, he communicates with his disciples in many ways, including dreams, visions, and other. He acts among them too! He performs miracles and gives orders. So this is the part that I really love about Christianity. From the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (which is a spiritual encounter; I'm not talking about water baptism) on, it's just a completely different reality.

Structural, ceremonial Christianity can obscur some people's eyes and make them think that that's all there is. I am not surprised that some people do not find that at all interesting. In Acts though, we can see what Christianity was in the past, and what it still is for millions of believers. Because of this, I find Christianity to be very, very exciting .

This is a very, very long post .

[Mercutio]

So Inked...do you believe in free will or predestination?

[Nurvingiel]

Wow Lief, that was an awesome post! What does the word 'righteous' mean to you? To Christians in general? (If there's a difference.)

My problem is I'm not sure Christ lives in me. I'm not opposed to this, but I'm not adamant about it either. I've only just realized that I'm a really apathetic Christian. I don't want to stop being a Christian, but I don't really do anything specifically Christian either.

In some ways I do act out loving my neighbour. I try to be charitable and generally decent to people. But you don't have to be Christian to do that. Not being Christian, if this was to occur, wouldn't change that aspect of me. But I also know I don't reject Jesus' teaching (of course, millions of non-Christians don't either) and I don't want to leave the religion I grew up with.

Maybe I only don't want to stop being Christian because I was raised that way??? I also am not attracted to any other faith either.

[Grey_Wolf]

oops! wrong thread. sorry.

[Spock]

[inked]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Hee. I like your style Brownie.

Is Christianity beliefs you hold or actions you take? If it's the latter, what actious should a Christian take? This seems like something I'd be better at. Unless it's going to Church, I haven't done that in years. I'm just a terrible Christian aren't I!

What is a cossack and why is Inked wearing one? (I thought a Cossack was a person from somewhere. )

Speeling, Nurv, speeling. Cassock does not = cossack. The former is a clothing the latter a Russian soldier. That's what they make dictionary.com for, anyway .

Christianity is a set of beliefs you hold, an organized rigorous way of thinking about humanity and God based on God's revealed and Incarnate Nature and Being. Being a Christian is being in right relationship with God through His appointed means of salvation of the unregenerate cosmos, Jesus of Nazareth, God Incarnate.

Nurv, you really need to check out your PB*. Those Creeds mean what they say. God, the eternal Creative Person, took humanity to Himself and suffered and bled and died to regenerate the ruined creation and restore people to right relationship to Himself, which people are totally incapable of doing on their own behalf. God the Father made you, God the Son redeemed you, God the Holy Spirit indwells believers so that eternal life begins here and now in enemy territory which is being transformed into His glorious kingdom.

(Imagine the Uncle Sam recruiting posters with God saying, "I want you badly enough to die for you and bring you to true joy!" Yes, that finger is pointing at Nurv! and Inked and every person in all time and place !)

edit in from discrimination thread: reply to BJ -
No one is claiming that Jesus never taught the Tao. He did. He in fact was its origin and fulfillment. That wise men have seen the light acknowledges the existence of the light. A point I have been at some pains to make for two years and you to avoid.

The issue here is that Jesus made exclusive claims about His person that will not allow one to merely class Him as a great teacher. Great teachers do not claim Godhood (that is, I believe, your point), but Jesus did. He did not mean to leave us the option to bypass Him by that route. "I and the Father are One" in the context of the Shema, "Hear, O Israel, YHWH our God is One YHWH" can only mean a claim to be YHWH.

See John 5, noting in particular verses 17 and 18:
17 - But Jesus answered them, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."
18 - Therefore the Jew(ish leaders) sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

If, as is reality, Jesus is God, then His Incarnation, Passion, Resurrection and Ascension are the critical nodes of history. Other philosophical statements about some perceived "god" are to thirst as H2O is to a glass of water. One is merely conceptional, the other is glorious reality.


Mercutio, Both!


Lief, Exceedingly well put!

*Nurv PB = Prayerbook NOT postbox!

[rohirrim TR]

Lief, inked, great posts, right on.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Wow Lief, that was an awesome post! What does the word 'righteous' mean to you? To Christians in general? (If there's a difference.)

My problem is I'm not sure Christ lives in me. I'm not opposed to this, but I'm not adamant about it either. I've only just realized that I'm a really apathetic Christian. I don't want to stop being a Christian, but I don't really do anything specifically Christian either.

In some ways I do act out loving my neighbour. I try to be charitable and generally decent to people. But you don't have to be Christian to do that. Not being Christian, if this was to occur, wouldn't change that aspect of me. But I also know I don't reject Jesus' teaching (of course, millions of non-Christians don't either) and I don't want to leave the religion I grew up with.

Maybe I only don't want to stop being Christian because I was raised that way??? I also am not attracted to any other faith either.

Here's the parable of the sower, slightly edited: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. Some of the seed fell on the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, multiplying thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times."

Jesus later interpreted the parable, explaining that the seed was his word. Some immediately don't believe the word. Satan has snatched the seed that was given them. When the seed fell on rocky places, trouble or persecution stifled the seed's early growth. When the seed fell among thorns, "the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desire for other things came in and choke[d] the word, making it unfruitful." The seed that fell on good soil were those who heard the word and accepted it. The grain rose and multiplied.

Jesus gave this parable in a batch of others that were all about people encountering and then growing in the kingdom of God. When people accept the word, they grow. In what? Righteousness. When they accept the word, Christ enters them and transforms them to righteousness. This transformed person is the long, fruitful grain stalk that grows.

In 1 John 4:7-8, it says, "Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." However, it also says in verse 15, "If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. And so we know and rely on the love God has for us." And in verse 19, it is written, "we love because He first loved us." Then, in verse 12 of the following chapter, "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."

So what can be concluded? Verse 7 taken alone would imply that every person is going to heaven, for everyone loves to some extent. However, taking this verse by itself in this context is absurd, for the following verse talks about people who do not love God. Indeed, the same author says in 3:6, "No one who lives in [Christ] keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or knows him." When he says this, he is talking about what characterizes a person's life. If a person's life is characterized by sin rather than godliness, that person is not living in God. However, no one can choose to be godly. John said, "we rely on the love God has for us." If everyone who loves in this high form of love John is talking about is born of God, and yet also the verse is true that says that we must acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, then we are left with: One must both love and believe. However, love comes from God. According to the parable of the sower, the word is what is sown. So if we believe, we will love.

In summary, God sows the word in people's hearts. If they believe in him, he enters their hearts and because Christ is inside them, they are transformed. Then they truly love, with a love that is from God and not from men. Then, a person's life will be characterized by godliness, simply because God is in them. They will automatically start to abstain from the world's ways, though it also takes some work as well.

Non-Christians can be loving, gentle and good, but people who do not have Christ living in them cannot be godly.

When a human being is born, that person bears the characteristics of his or her parents. It is the same way with people born of God. People born of God have God's characteristics in their lives. John defines righteousness in this way: "He who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous." The child will bear the characteristics of the parent, a fact that comes across in this definition.

Okay! So how do we know that Christ is living in us?

Originally Posted by 1 John 3:21-24

Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

One can know that God is in him or her because God's Spirit reveals it. I think of this as an experiential encounter with God, though perhaps it can come in the form of just conviction of this truth, or perhaps some other means. For anyone who wants to know Jesus Christ more than they currently do, whether they know him well, not at all, or anywhere in between, I strongly recommend this passage:

Originally Posted by Matthew 7:7-8

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

Also, in John 16:14, "[The Holy Spirit] will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you."

And shortly after, he says, "Until now, you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete."

These words of Jesus are just really, really cool. Amazing responses can follow.