11-23-2004, 09:08 PM | #641 | ||||
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I picked up one more kid, dropped off 5, and am down to 1 kid at home - and I have one whole hour to Moot! Thank goodness for crockpots and bean soup on cold days!
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In the NT, there is a name, "Hades", that's similar to Sheol, and refers to basically the region of the departed, with reference to the intermediate state between death and the resurrection. There's also "Gehenna", which is the eternal hell. Purgatory is a term used by the Catholic church, so I won't discuss it. I see no basis for the existence of Purgatory, tho. And the Bible seems very consistent that once a person is in Hell, thru their own choices, he/she will not come out. And this seems linked to the idea that our myriad small, daily choices are making eternal marks on our souls - like how you can influence the growth of a mighty tree by small, daily pressure. And after millions of choices, it comes to the place where it is no use to offer any further chances for salvation, because it has been chosen against millions of times - there is NO chance of it being accepted. Quote:
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I found, while I was talking with Janny once, that this term, "non-denominational" isn't a familiar one in England, and perhaps it's not in Canada, either, so I'll describe it a bit. Denominational churches (Methodist, etc.) are accountable to regional and national headquarters. Non-denominational churches are their own entity. The chuch leadership follows the Biblical model of being lead by "elders" - men who model a high degree of integrity in their lives. There is usually a head pastor who does the teaching, but he is subject to the elders' authority. My particular church is several thousand members. Many, if not most, non-denominational churches are quite large - membership in the thousands. Personally I think it's because people are tired of the (I'm sorry to say) hypocrisy that is typically in denominational churches, and come to where the Bible is being taught clearly and without apology. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-23-2004, 09:27 PM | #642 | ||
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I think it is so utterly cool that Jesus will accept ANYONE who wishes to come to Him. That's one way that I see Christianity as the "fairest" worldview around, as opposed to the works-based worldviews. See, you look at someone like me - I look like basically a fairly decent person. Yet ... yet ... how much of that is due to my good upbringing, and the fact that I've always had plenty to eat, and have never been molested, etc. - things that are entirely NOT due to any merit on my part. Now put me in a terrible home growing up, and I'm sure I'd be quite different. Yet the fairness of God doesn't score good works - NONE of us can earn salvation thru works - NONE of us - our salvation is ENTIRELY due to the work of Jesus, the pure and spotless Lamb of God, on our behalf, and it's available to ANYONE and EVERYONE. And I truly think that God, who sees into the uttermost depths of our hearts, is more pleased with a person raised in a horrible situation who refrains from lying one time out of 100, then with me when I don't lie at all for months on end. If you were on trial for your life, wouldn't you like a judge who knows everything about your situation? And yet this judge has mercy, too - His justice rightly compels Him to pass a right and just sentence, and His mercy allows Him to pay the price Himself - if we will accept it. The Bible teaches on this subject that everyone has 2 witnesses to God - their conscience, and creation (the stars are glorious! and the flowers! and the mountains - they're breathtaking!) - and that these 2 things are sufficient for a person to make an informed decision to seek God - or deny Him. And the Bible teaches that ANYONE that seeks God with all their heart WILL find Him. Does this answer your question?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-23-2004, 09:30 PM | #643 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-23-2004, 09:38 PM | #644 | |
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I suppose people form heresies right from the clearly expressed words of the Bible also, simply because of malignant human nature. Can you offer me any examples though of non-Christians who have been led to wonderful correct conclusions about God because of looking at nature?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-23-2004 at 09:40 PM. |
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11-23-2004, 09:42 PM | #645 | ||||||||
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First of all, you're making your statement about the onus of proof falling on me based on an unproven claim about the characteristics of heaven. If you can't show me a snapshot, then I refuse to grant the assumption that heaven is "fantastical" IMO, heaven is an actual place, with specific characteristics, and this has nothing to do with how hard or easy it should be to prove its existence. Now if the description of heaven contained contradictory terms, that's something different - but it doesn't. BTW, I think Paris is a more "fantastical" place than, say, Boston - do you require more proof to accept the existence of Paris than the existence of Boston? Quote:
Seriously, I just hope that people will think about their worldviews. I think it's an important topic. Quote:
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And I don't think my particular interpretation, with all its details, is entirely right. Yet I don't think it matters much, either, except in the absolute essentials, which are as follows : God exists and created us (perhaps in 6 days, perhaps even by evolution, altho I think the evidence indicates the former); all people have sinned, sin divides people, rightly, from a perfectly holy God; because God is loving, Jesus came to provide a way to reconcile us to God; those that accept this (and accept in a life-changing way where the rightful authority of God is acknowledged, not just mentally - heck, the devil knows that Jesus died for our sins!) will be with God in fulness of joy for all eternity. The other stuff isn't critical, IMO, altho it's important. The basics ARE critical. As Aslan said, once the feet are right, the rest of the body will follow Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-23-2004 at 09:47 PM. |
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11-23-2004, 10:02 PM | #646 | ||
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However, let me head off one question that I think you might bring up, because I often hear them asked together Christians are NOT bound to the OT (Old Testament) covenant (law). Christians are under the NT (New Testament) covenant. This means I can eat pork with an easy mind And Jesus, the Law-Giver (therefore speaking with rightful authority), summed up the ENTIRE law and prophets with 2 sentences : Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and love your neighbors as yourself. Now some of the details of how this works out in real life are given in the NT, and yes, I think these should be followed "word for word", with the HEART intent to obey those two sentences above (as opposed to some self-righteous checklist kind of mentality).
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-23-2004, 10:11 PM | #647 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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IOW, when it became apparent that people no longer spoke as good King Jim did (the King James version), then learned scholars went back to the same documents that King Jim's guys did, and retranslated into newer language. This is NOT error - it's just an acknowledgement that the word "charity" in First Corinthians chpt. 13 in the King Jim version would be misunderstood by people today - it's now translated as "love", which has the SAME meaning as "charity" did in those days for that section. There's no translation error. Language is fluid; it only makes sense to modernize translations now and then. BTW, I think Tolkien translated Job for the King James version, didn't he?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-23-2004 at 10:12 PM. |
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11-23-2004, 10:50 PM | #648 | ||
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But the suffering is not eternal. I think, eventually, everyone will come to that point where they will repent. I think some people don't learn what they need to for so long that they practically live in this realm of pain forever--practically. But they don't live in it forever, and peace is gained in the end, by all. This is my solution. In it, there is still an idea of God that ultimately allows us to suffer. There is also a reason why which makes sense to me. And there is also no eternal suffering, no one left unsaved. It is the same model I presented when I was on the hotseat, only I used rather different language. Quote:
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11-23-2004, 11:28 PM | #649 |
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Rian,
Tolkein was asked to translate Job but did not in fact do so. This, IIRC, was checking the English translation of the French, not translating from the Hebrew text. There is excellent discussion of this either here or over at Science Fiction Fandom. I do not think Tolkein had very much to do with Job in the final analysis due to his work load. He did do a bit with Jonah, though. FYI and excuse the interruption. Nolendil, your viewpoint as described has a strain in Christianity known as Universalism. FYI, also.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
11-24-2004, 12:16 AM | #650 | |
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For example, non-Christians will sometimes say things like "I just can't worship a God that hates homosexuals." Now, when talking to me, I assume they're referring to the Christian God. However, their premise that the Christian God hates homosexuals is WRONG, and I can support this with verses from the Bible. So in cases like that, the ONLY thing I'm trying to clear up is that in the case of Christianity, at least, they are wrong to say that God hates homosexuals, and therefore their objection falls down. I'm not trying to prove that Christianity is right. I am, however, pointing out that their statement about a characteristic of the Christian God is incorrect. Do you see what I mean? If people make statements that assume certain aspects of Christianity, and they are incorrect, then I try to correct them, just as I accept your corrections about Hindu doctrine.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-24-2004, 12:19 AM | #651 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And about the reality thing - I'm not saying that my worldview IS actual reality (altho I think it probably is). What I'm saying is that we need to evaluate/analyze it AS IF it is actual reality, to see how well it holds up to the analysis/evaluation.
IOW, I think a valuable way to analyze a worldview is this : Let's assume that it IS true. Now what deductions can I make from it, and do these deductions match up with what I actually can observe? Does that make sense? (and thank you, inked )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-24-2004, 12:22 AM | #652 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-24-2004, 02:16 AM | #653 | |||||||||
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(continuing on down page 30)
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It's just that love is a two-way street. I dated a guy in college for a year, then over that year I saw character traits in him that I eventually decided that I couldn't live with, and I broke up with him. He still loved me and wanted to stay together, but I declined (a difficult thing to do , but one I thought was best for both of us). He loved me, but I didn't love him. In the same way, God can really, really love a person, and do EVERYTHING on His side to show the love - yet if the person doesn't love back, then there's nothing God can do to force that love, unless it's take his/her very personhood away by turning them into a robot that can only repeat, without any meaning, "I love God and want to be with Him in Heaven!" Now I really, really hope that there will be NO ONE in Hell. I also believe that this is very much a possibility. Now you said that you think no one will be in Hell - that they will ALL end up in Heaven, or Nirvana. I respect your belief , but you didn't answer my question - I was asking you IF there is a possibility that a person did not WANT to change, what other alternative is there, besides Hell? As C.S. Lewis says (roughly) - I'm not trying to make the idea of Hell palatable - it isn't! - I'm just trying to show that it's reasonable. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-24-2004 at 02:20 AM. |
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11-24-2004, 02:20 AM | #654 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Is that enough for you for now, Nurvi!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-24-2004, 04:15 AM | #655 | ||||||||||
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God is made out to be the one who is right, but I think Milton really explored the nature of the evil of Satan in such a way that allowed readers to sympathize with the demon. Quote:
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Again, my point in arguing this is to illustrate my opinion that the Heaven/Hell choice model is not an ideal representation for the honor that Christianity has for free will. One is given the severest of penalties for making one choice, and the greatest of rewards for making the other. You would say that this is honoring free will because God allows people even to choose not to be with him. But the consequences for such a choice are absolutely horrendous, effectively forcing people to choose Heaven. Yes, some would choose Hell anyway, but as I have said, this would be for the sake of protest, or ignorance of consequence. Quote:
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I agree that love is a two-way street. I don't agree that the only other solution is to take away a person's free will. I think God allows us all to heal, before we are with Him in Heaven. Anyway I think you have explained yourself well. Quote:
I think, as Lief mentioned, it comes down to my high trust in the goodness of the human soul. I don't believe anyone would never choose to change.
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11-24-2004, 10:31 AM | #656 | |||||
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Just to liven things up, my huge long post of doom will be presented in a spiffy new font!
Is that enough for you... lol! It sure is buddy... Quote:
I have heard of non-denominational churches before, though I've never been to one. But isn't Methodist a denomination? Why are the elders only men? (Other than that the structure of the church makes sense.) I'm sure there are some churches that are hypocritical, but just to stick up for my own church, we're denominational (Anglican), but we're not hypocrites! The main messages in our church are love, acceptance, and community. We don't contradict these things. Or apologize about the Bible. Why would you do that anyway? Quote:
I don’t think we should discount things just because they don’t make sense though. I think you have to say, "Why does this not make sense?" If I pick up a book written in Chinese, none of it will make sense to me. That’s because I don’t read Chinese, not because there’s something illogical about the book. Now, the book may actually not make sense, but I would first have to overcome my own shortcomings (not being able to read Chinese) to determine if the book had any shortcomings. Maybe you were already getting at that though. Quote:
Thanks for also responding about sin nature (which I still don’t fully understand, but that’s for the Theology thread) and Hell. I didn’t mean to double ask the question; there were a lot of posts.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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11-24-2004, 11:29 AM | #657 | ||
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About proving unseen things, I meant to add this as well. I forget where I read this analogy (it might have been at Entmoot), but I think it's appropriate. I hope I do it justice typing it from memory.
One day in a philosophy class, the professor asked the students, "Has any of you heard God?" The class was silent. "Has any of you touched God?" continued the professor. Again, the class was silent. "Has any of you seen God?" The class was silent, wondering what the professor was getting at. "Therefore," he concluded, "There is no God." After a minute, one student put up his hand. "Has any of you heard our professor's brain?" he asked his classmates. No one spoke up. "Has any of you touched our professor's brain?" he continued. The class was silent. "Has any of you seen our professor's brain?" Still silence. "Therefore," the student concluded, "Our professor doesn't have a brain." You could replace "God" with "heaven" in this story.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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11-24-2004, 12:30 PM | #658 | ||||
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some people believe there was a place called "atlantis" on the earth in the past... there are writings about it, there are theories about it... it may have existed, it may not... but one would be deluded to say it's as definite as a place like paris or boston you don't assume something exists just 'cause it makes sense... jrrt's middle earth makes pretty good sense within it's own bounds, does that mean it exists? the only difference between tolkien's work and the bible is that we know jrrt wrote it logic dictates that the bible is also a group of stories written by individuals... since we have no hard evidence of its more "fantastical" elements (angels, heaven, god, satan, etc.) of course, one can always maintain "beliefs", but they should not be seen as anything more than that Quote:
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i interpret the bible as a collection of stories Quote:
jews do not believe in "original sin"... most catholics do... this is not exactly a "minor detail"
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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11-24-2004, 12:34 PM | #659 | |
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the point is that you can (as in, have the ability) to see the professor's brain... which is why we say it exists such is not the case for "god" and "heaven" try substituting "soul" for "brain" the point is not whether you have seen something, but whether it is possible to see something
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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11-24-2004, 12:36 PM | #660 | |
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btw ~ you did not my address my most important (to me ) issue with christainity and many other religions:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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