06-11-2008, 05:22 AM | #641 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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It wasn't a belief in Jesus or the awe of God that brought 200 million people in China out of absolute poverty in a few years, a feat that has never happened before in the history of mankind, but intelligent economic measures, the empowerment of many people to have jobs and make a living. An enormous societal feat, completely unrelated to any higher being.
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
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06-11-2008, 08:40 AM | #642 |
Elf Lady
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And you know that because...?
Perhaps China's leaders got inspired. Then again, maybe it was pure luck. In any case, I don't see how that example disproves the hand of a higher being.
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06-11-2008, 09:12 AM | #643 | |||
Elf Lord
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I understood the China analogy. The question Coffeehouse poses is known classically as "The Problem of Evil" and is an old one. It's a reasonable question, and many people say, "Supernatural explanations are an excuse for people to let suffering continue...that doesn't strike me as ethical behavior for followers of Christ." That's how I read it. Quote:
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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06-11-2008, 09:17 AM | #644 |
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Well you see, Christianity is a very small religion in China, and most Chinese to do not believe in God. So it does not need saying really. The point is that good things happen all the time without any interference by any higher being (a claim of invisible and secret messages of divine truth is not something I am ready to believe in. Highly suspect)
A society where the word of a God, that can neither be seen or heard by all peoples of the world, is the highest word, is not a healthy society. Where all sorts of actions and misdeeds can be carried out under the pretense of having the ear of God. Luckily, the reason of economics steers people out of poverty in China, and not converts or attendance in church or blind faith in a man in Rome. If being close to a God brings humanity happiness, why is heavily Christian southern Sudan so desolately poor? So desolately unfortunate?
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." Last edited by Coffeehouse : 06-11-2008 at 09:18 AM. |
06-11-2008, 09:21 AM | #645 | |
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I thought I was a wordy writer. In Entmoot that belief is put to shame!
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
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06-11-2008, 09:30 AM | #646 | |||
Kraken King
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
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06-11-2008, 09:32 AM | #647 | |
Elf Lady
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But at the same time you can't prove He doesn't exist. Or prove that all the good things in the world do not somehow have a higher hand in it. I don't want to get involved in this discussion because I feel I have nothing sensible to add. I just wanted to show the reason why I think you and Lief will never be able to convince each other. Or the two of us for that matter.
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Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
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06-11-2008, 09:49 AM | #648 |
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Luckily I have a reflecting mind that cherishes reason.
Of all the progress these lasts hundreds of years that has brought so much of humanity from poverty and into a living where time for reflection and time for enjoyment is a substantial time. None of this progress has been due to any divine messages of truth or revelations of enlightenment in the Bible or in any other religious script. The Bible had its chance, it had the many centuries leading up to the Enlightenment. The Torah, the Koran, they've all been around, had their chance. The progress experienced in the ages since the Dutch Benedict Spinoza in the mid-1600s up to today, with all the thinkers of the Enlightenment, the 19th century father of evolution, Darwin, the strides made in the 20th and 21st century, all this progress has happened despite the authoritarianism of the Church, the rigidity of the Bible. The progress of science happened despite a cultural and traditional ironhold by religious belief and thought and way of life, not because of it. Why, and we come back to the Problem of Evil that Sis mentioned, did God's great book of teachings fail for so long to help so many empoverished peoples? Why was an empowerment of everyday people, my forefathers and your forefathers, only a reality after the rigidity of religious thought was put aside with all its choking of reason and inequality of women? Why was this only a reality when the belief in reason, the healthy sharing of knowledge and the unrelenting drive towards a better future not because of divine teachings, but because it was right? I would embrace the existance of a higher being, because it would mean I could have an afterlife (a very encouraging thought!), but reason was given to me, like any other human being, and I intend to follow it and decide that the reality of the world is the reality that we can see, touch, smell, measure and experience alone and together, not a reality dictated by an outdated book..
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
06-11-2008, 09:54 AM | #649 | ||
Elf Lord
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Jesus was %100 about "daily bread", loaves and fishes, wine at weddings, and love your neighbor. Follow these rules and your life, here on earth gets better. If you look at Jesus (putting a temporary hold on Revelation. Paul's misogyny, etc.) you get a recipe for right now.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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06-11-2008, 10:08 AM | #650 | |||||
Kraken King
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Good to hear.
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I believe God had a hand in the rest. I do not have any ties with, and little respect for, the Pope and the ungodly power he weilds. It seems like the papacy was more a power-grab than anything. Quote:
g the many people who still use its teachings and parables to illustrate truths today.
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
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06-11-2008, 10:13 AM | #651 | |
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These are virtues of a good education, but they are not unique. All human beings, whatever views of the world, know stories and have learned stories of virtues and manners and how to give happiness to others and be happy oneself. They're not inherently Christian as little as they're inherently Muslim or Native American.
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." Last edited by Coffeehouse : 06-11-2008 at 10:15 AM. Reason: spelling: they're not they |
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06-11-2008, 10:13 AM | #652 | ||
Kraken King
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BTW, you seemed to have helped my point about the Bible not being outdated.
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
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06-11-2008, 10:17 AM | #653 | |
Elf Lord
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lol Translation issue, I think you'll find. I didn't say that good life lessons were exclusive to Christianity. I said that the message of the Gospels was not otherworldly.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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06-11-2008, 10:19 AM | #654 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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Haha.. I searched up leprechauns.. oh dear! Lepers I meant
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
06-11-2008, 10:21 AM | #655 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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Oh and it wasn't an argument against yours. It was an agreement. I was adding to your true words.
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
06-11-2008, 10:21 AM | #656 |
Kraken King
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Wow, now this is gonna be the high point f the rest of my day.
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
06-11-2008, 10:31 AM | #657 |
Elf Lord
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No wonder all those furriners are godless heathen.
__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
06-11-2008, 10:35 AM | #658 |
Kraken King
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*snort*
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
06-11-2008, 10:36 AM | #659 |
Elf Lady
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So Coffeehouse, if I understand it correctly your problem is with the institution we call the Church and the Bible?
I can see why. It is easy to point out all the things the church did wrong. Not just the catholic one, but also the protestant church, the synagogue, the mosque, etc. Right after the fall of the Roman Empire and the rise of Christianity, a lot of knowledge and good buildings were destroyed in the name of the Lord. A lot of things were done in the name of the Lord. And are still being done. I once read a remark that said as much as: Christianity should have stayed an Idea. Institutionalizing anything makes a mess of it. And of course it is true that with institutionalization a certain rigidity comes. Suddenly people start to think of a concept that is "correct religion" and what isn't. People who don't conform are feared, loathed, mistreated, etc. However, the church however many its faults may be, also has its good sides. My church for example has an extensive fundraising network to help the people who don't have enough money to buy clothes for the kids etc. They are involved with the homeless. The church I went to in Japan helped people in prison (there was a prison choir under our father), they collected money for charity etc. There are still many charity organizations with roots in a church. The point I'm trying to make (and now I'm getting to that awful "freedom of choice" argument) is that institutions are run by people. Often they really do want to help, but in a lot of cases that is a) not enough b) not practical c) too focused on one thing d) whatmore. People who have faith aren't necessarily good people. People without it not necessarily good. You know, I think I forgot the point I was trying to make... >_< You see, there's a good reason I don't enter this sort of thing
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Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
...The Earth laughs in flowers ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Hamatreya"... |
06-11-2008, 11:32 AM | #660 |
Elf Lord
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Looks like it's been quite an interesting discussion while I was asleep! Just woke up and started reading.
I've got some school to do today- last two days of finals are today and tomorrow, but I'll try to get in a string of replies soon.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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