Capturing Tolkien's Vision vs. A Literal Interpretation

[Lizra]

What is the point? Everybody is just repeating themselves over and over. Those that enjoy an immature insult fest are having a good time, but it's boring to me. Great idea Ruinel, you are on my ignore list now. Never used it before, but the time is right!

[Elfhelm]

Aw, c'mon Rian! Some bozo who is too good for us comes back after hiatus just to call us vomitting sophists, before wandering off again and Lizra says wait for me, I'm doing my lips????? It's all off topic!

As to "agree to disagree" meaning not descending to personal attack, it doesn't. Personal attack is a logical fallacy called "ad hominum" which, by definition is sophistry. Agreeing to disagree means dropping an argument. But we are enjoying ourselves! Why should we drop it? Heck, it's the most active thread on the entire board! If we drop it, what in the moot will we talk about? We've started other threads, but they just lie there half-ignored.

As to sophistry, as I said, it means to argue with logical fallacy. He who made the charge used so many fallacies, it would make a textbook example in the rules of Logic as what not to do! So just ignore him and move on.

We have a right to argue this point. People should not stoop to personal attack. I will point out that BB is continually whittling at people with little insults, and it's uncool. Ruinel isn't the only guilty party. Doesn't make her less culpable, though... hehe

Can we get back to the argument? You all let a personal attacker drag us off topic.

[Elfhelm]

Originally posted by Lizra
but it's boring to me.

Boredom is self-inflicted. Can we go back on topic?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Lizra
Great idea Ruinel, you are on my ignore list now. Never used it before, but the time is right!

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Geez, Ruinel, your first post against Lizra was bad enough, but the second was worse So I'll say as you did - I feel the need to make a brief comment on them.
What, doing loving acts for others is wrong? Do you have a videocam in Lizra's house? I don't think she is brainless "hausfrau" by any means - she's intelligent and funny and a good poster. She does have a bit of a temper sometimes, 'tho, just like, um, er, .... you! However, she can apologize (did you see her apology several posts up?) Can you?
Well, take a look at your last 2 posts and see if some of your comments match this criteria.

There is nothing wrong with doing things for others. And that is why I had to rethink that post. I certainly do not want to insult someone who chooses to stay home to raise kids.

I would have left her alone if not for her follow up post. If she can't take it she shouldn't be dishing it out. Sorry, that's my philosophy. As you said, I've got a temper sometimes, and it shows, but I get over it very quickly. I'm usually quick to overlook a slight and quicker to accept an appology, but if it keeps coming you better prepare for fire.

I don't know her well, and she doesn't know me well. But what I have experienced from her posts leaves me with an impression quite different from yours, RÃ*an. And I value your opinion. So, if you say she's intelligent, then I'll be patient and wait to be enlightened. When I see that, I'll retract my statement and appologize to her.

I like you both, and I like to read (most of) your posts - they're insightful and intelligent and funny. Now just cool your jets and make up, please!

Don't worry, RÃ*an, I'm not mad. I'm indifferent. Like I said, I don't know her and if she wants to put me on an 'ignore list' that might be in her own best interest, as I seem to upset her so much. Because I have no intentions in second guessing my posts to protect her delicate nature.

EDIT: Ah, yes... here it is... my first (or was this my second) apology to Lizra.

Yeah, you are right. *hangs head in shame* I apologize. I've edited myself. I'm having a bad day, but that's no excuse. .... Hope you forgive me.

[Rían]

by RÃ*an (I love quoting myself!)
However, she can apologize (did you see her apology several posts up?) Can you?

You can indeed apologize, Ruinel, and very well. I had forgotten that post - thanks for reminding me. I remember reading it and thinking it very handsome.

by Ruinel
Because I have no intentions in second guessing my posts to protect her delicate nature.

'delicate nature'?? *mwwffpphhht* *tries to not laugh* I wouldn't describe Lizra that way! She's one pretty down-to-earth person! (I'm thinking of 'delicate' in the uncomplimentary sense of the word - someone who falsely pretends to be offended just for effect or to get attention or to be a snob).

She's very intelligent in a way that I admire (and that I'm NOT - I tend to be analytical/methodical) - she has the ability to cut right thru the superfluous *runs to dictionary, changes an incorrect "u" to an "e") stuff right to the heart of a matter in a very insightful way. I value her opinion, altho we disagree in some major areas!


*sees steam coming out of Elfhelm's ears*

Um, ok, back on topic -

I was just thinking about this today - how many of you more devoted Tolkien fans (the ones that have read LoTR multiple times, and prob. also the Sil and HoME books and UT) that saw the movie didn't notice some of the changes from the book until several viewings of the movie? I'm in the "more devoted" category, so is Ruinel and many others here. I'm talking about little things like at the very beginning, when Galadriel talks about the rings - "three were given to the elf lords", then "7 to the dwarf lords", etc. Well, the elves MADE their own rings! It makes it sound like Sauron made them and gave it to them, which is completely wrong. But Cate Blanchett's voice is so lovely, I didn't even catch it for awhile.

Also when Elrond said in the council something like "I've called you all here", when actually they all come for their own reasons. I've always liked that part in the book, that Elrond didn't summon them, but they all just "happened" to come at the same time. As Gandalf said, there are other forces at work besides Sauron!

[Black Breathalizer]

People seem to forget that a discussion board is about discussion. I don't particularly care for the comments that Wayfarer makes in his posts. I suspect he feels the same way about mine. But I would never put him on "ignore" or anyone else for that matter. Wayfarer's comments infuriate me, but nevertheless, they challenge me and push me to further articulate my own points in response. Based on many of the posts here, maybe I've challenged some of you purists out there to further define your positions as well.

Real, passionate debate on both sides of an issue is interesting to read and follow. I suspect it's the reason this thread is still hanging around. People on either side should be applauded for their passion, not asked to apologize for it. Personally, I don't even mind direct verbal attacks on me (otherwise known as flaming) as long as it's done in a way that's halfway funny or interesting to read. Whatever is said or argued here, we all need to keep in mind: this...is...all...for...fun.

[Rían]

Oh, and another one that really irked me that I DID notice right away - in Galadriel's summary again - that "within each ring was bound the power to rule their race" (or something like that). Yuck! NOT!!

[Rían]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
People on either side should be applauded for their passion, not asked to apologize for it.

I agree, unless their passion causes them to insult someone else. That's MY HO; your HO may differ.

Personally, I'm absolutely thrilled to be able to talk with so many intelligent Tolkien lovers, and I've enjoyed many lively debates here. I've learned a tremendous amount (this from a person who had read LoTR prob. about 10 times before joining Entmoot, also read Sil). I now have 5 HoME books, as well as UT and Letters. Horray for Tolkien and his incredibly beautiful work! Sometimes it just breaks my heart with its beauty. It is certainly a passionate work, and it inspires passion, too.

[azalea]

Just one more off--topic comment for EVERYONE to keep in mind: We do have RULES about behavior here, as well as appropriate post content. While it is tempting to stretch the limits of those rules, it always ends up in off-topic back-and-forth stuff like this, which, self-inflicted or no, IS boring, especially for poor newbies that happen upon these threads.

That being said, Elfhelm brought up some EXCELLENT and thought-provoking questions regarding the topic at hand:

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Back on topic, why shouldn't a screenwriter create one "might-have-been" scene to accomplish the result of several scenes that wouldn't fit?

And is there a maximum number of these might-have-been scenes allowed before the readers of the book think it is too drastic a change?

And is the number of such scenes less for fanatical fans?

And should screenwriters be guided in the opinions of casual readers, or be totally governed by the fanatical fans?

I'm interested to know everyone's thought on this, and to post my own, but alas, I have to get offline right now. I'll post mine later if you post yours now.
Hmm, I see that as I've been writing this people have been posting, so the whole post may seem out of place at this point but so be it.

Edit: AHH, I'm never going to get offline at this rate, but I had a funny vision of BB as Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men: "You want me in this thread, you need me in this thread, etc." If it weren't for him we wouldn't have this oh-so-lively and interesting thread, no?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
'delicate nature'?? *mwwffpphhht* *tries to not laugh*

That impression is what she left on me. But as you say... I may be wrong in my assessment of her. And I will wait for that impression to be changed by her posts. As I've said before, I don't need an 'ignore list'.

Enough wasted time on this... back to the real topic: bashing BB. ooops... did I say that... my mistake....

...I'm talking about little things like at the very beginning, when Galadriel talks about the rings - "three were given to the elf lords", .... Well, the elves MADE their own rings! It makes it sound like Sauron made them and gave it to them, which is completely wrong....

I'm glad that I'm not the only one that sees this. It completely contradicts the story written in LotR, as well as, The Sil. And you are correct, the impression left on the viewer is that Sauron gave the Rings of Power to the Elf Lords, when in fact they were forged in secret by Celebrimbor and given to them. Celebrimbor died in torment at the hands of The Enemy, taking that secret to his grave for the sake of Galadriel, who he loved. And that beginning, albeit beautifully spoken by K.B., was completely wrong.

BB no one particularly cares for the comments that you make. If Wayfarer's posts push you to articulate your response, then when will we be graced with that? And don't worry, I don't attack children. You are, what, about 12 years old? Right? Sorry, I can't check your profile right now to see if I'm right. I'll just have to go by my gut instinct.

[azalea]

Originally posted by Ruinel

BB no one particularly cares for the comments that you make.

See my edit in the post above yours.

[Rían]

Ruinel - and doesn't the "rule the race" thing just make you gag! Perhaps the rings for the men and the dwarves were for that (tho I don't recall anywhere where their purposes were stated), but NOT the elven-rings. Those were to preserve beauty. (altho Galadriel left Valinor because she did want to "rule there a realm at her own will." - from the Sil)

Now I'm thinking there was something in Letters about the rings for the men and dwarves....

[Wayfarer]

People seem to forget that a discussion board is about discussion. I don't particularly care for the comments that Wayfarer makes in his posts. I suspect he feels the same way about mine. But I would never put him on "ignore" or anyone else for that matter. Wayfarer's comments infuriate me, but nevertheless, they challenge me and push me to further articulate my own points in response. Based on many of the posts here, maybe I've challenged some of you purists out there to further define your positions as well.

Oh yeah, still got it.

[Rían]

(hee hee - good edit, azalea!)

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Ruinel - and doesn't the "rule the race" thing just make you gag! Perhaps the rings for the men and the dwarves were for that (tho I don't recall anywhere where their purposes were stated), but NOT the elven-rings. Those were to preserve beauty. (altho Galadriel left Valinor because she did want to "rule there a realm at her own will." - from the Sil)

Now I'm thinking there was something in Letters about the rings for the men and dwarves....

Mad? Well, at first, it confused the hell out of me because I didn't know what Kate B. was talking about. Were these different rings from our story? Must be, because the Elven Rings ruled no one. It made the Elves look power hungry, and so weak that they could not rule their own people without some ring that Sauron gave them.

... the Three that had last been made, and they possessed the greatest powers.... and of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world.

and...

Seven rings he gave to the Dwarves.... The Dwarves indeed proved tought and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an overmastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron.

and...

but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will.... Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing....

Then it talks about them becoming the Nazgul.

Don't ya just love The Sil?

**************

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Lizra, about Ignoring: I only hope it works for you. I had someone on my ignore list (well, still have, but they don't post anymore), as they were a terribly notorious spammer. But it seemed as though every time that I saw that this person (who-shall-not-be-named) made a post, I just went and viewed it anyway, to see if this person had made any comment which was in the slightest bit constructive, interesting, and/or not altogether less than intelligent and so forth. So, I just hope that you have better luck than me. (not to say anything about you, Ru, love you, Miz Rancher! ).

BTW: Wayfarer... you better pm me back!

Check out GM, Ruey, there's a thread for this there.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
[B....Don't ya just love The Sil? [/B]

Yes!!

[Elfhelm]

Alright! We're going back to the topic! Whee!

This really is one of the liveliest threads going, so let's agree to disagree in great detail!

[Lizra]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Lizra, about Ignoring: I only hope it works for you. I had someone on my ignore list (well, still have, but they don't post anymore), as they were a terribly notorious spammer. But it seemed as though every time that I saw that this person (who-shall-not-be-named) made a post, I just went and viewed it anyway, to see if this person had made any comment which was in the slightest bit constructive, interesting, and/or not altogether less than intelligent and so forth. So, I just hope that you have better luck than me.



Lizra replies...........I don't do that! What would be the point? *Ignore* works great!

[Ruinel]

*rolls eyes at the spammers*

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Yes!!

I can't really speak for the man, but I wonder if PJ thought that either it made the Three Rings more sinister if they were given to them by Sauron. If so, he is mistaken. There is more peril in keeping them hidden from him.

Or perhaps these changes tie into some more serious changes that he has planned for RotK. *cringes* Say it isn't so.