Theology III

[Coffeehouse]

So one shouldn't read the Bible literally word for word? There's more to it but not being said?

[Coffeehouse]

Let me put it differently. Why is there a Bible?

[Lief Erikson]

Besides, I'll just add to that that the account in Luke suggests a vision a bit more clearly. It says, there, that the devil "led him to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world." The comment that he was shown these suddenly, in an instant, suggests a spiritual sight rather than a natural one. Also, it says that the devil showed him it, not the he just looked around below him and saw it all. That again suggests the devil supernaturally revealing things.

But the more important point is the one I mentioned in my earlier post. There are countless supposed errors people cite that rest on the basic logical error that omission equals denial.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Besides, I'll just add to that that the account in Luke suggests a vision a bit more clearly. It says, there, that the devil "led him to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world." The comment that he was shown these suddenly, in an instant, suggests a spiritual sight rather than a natural one. Also, it says that the devil showed him it, not the he just looked around below him and saw it all. That again suggests the devil supernaturally revealing things.

But the more important point is the one I mentioned in my earlier post. There are countless supposed errors people cite that rest on the basic logical error that omission equals denial.

Then why bring the guy to the top of a very high mountain? Why not show him in the dark of the night under a tree? Why get altitude?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

So one shouldn't read the Bible literally word for word?

Since when are you reading it more literally than me? The only difference is you're saying that nothing more could have happened beyond what is written, whereas I'm saying that things happened involving these people that aren't written in the Bible.

The Bible never describes anyone going to the bathroom- does that mean they never did? It never says any of them got a tan from the sun- were they all miraculously protected from the sun? That kind of questioning is nonsense. The Bible never claims to contain every detail of what happened. It doesn't claim to contain everything there is to know about the universe.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

There's more to it but not being said?

More to the stories that the Bible relates? A ton, undoubtedly! John 20:30 says, "Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book." John 21:25 says, "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."

The Bible never claims to contain every fact. In fact, it explicitly says the reverse.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Let me put it differently. Why is there a Bible?

To unite humanity with God.

You don't need an encyclopedia of every fact in the universe to do that.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

To unite humanity with God.

God needs a book for that? Why a book? Why not just speak to every single man and woman and child?

Why is God promoting inequality? If you know how to read you can read the Bible. If you're a 90 year old woman in Madagascar that can't read a single word, isn't that unfair?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Then why bring the guy to the top of a very high mountain? Why not show him in the dark of the night under a tree? Why get altitude?

Perhaps to symbolically portray Satan's glory. Mountains naturally portray the glory of God- Satan's dwelling is normally described as a pit, or hell, and people descend to it, but they rise to God's kingdom. Satan was trying to steal the glory of God to himself in that particular meeting, by trying to convince Jesus to worship him. So there is a natural symbolic link between Satan's chosen environment and his objective.

But even if that reason didn't readily present itself, I'd have to ask why not? There could be all kinds of reasons why he wanted to take Jesus up a mountain. Perhaps he wanted Jesus to see Jerusalem laid out before his physical eyes, Jerusalem that he cared so much for and wanted so much to bless, in order to weaken him further, before he showed him in a vision all the rest of the world (Jerusalem was probably pretty close to that mountain- Jesus' wandering in the wilderness being tempted lasted 40 days, and in that period of time the devil took him to the top of Jerusalem's temple once). There are plenty of mountains near Jerusalem.

Or there could have been some other reason.

Us not knowing a reason doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and Luke certainly suggests it was a vision. Even if he didn't, omission of something doesn't mean denial of it.

[Coffeehouse]

These are God's words. Shouldn't it be perfectly clear what he means? Does God have a problem with articulation?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

God needs a book for that? Why a book? Why not just speak to every single man and woman and child?

He does, in all kinds of ways, including through his Church, through nature, through the natural moral law, etc. He is constantly speaking to everyone, even if they aren't in contact with his Church. And he uses a book too, which is tied to the fact that Jesus Christ is the Word.

People hear God's voice more and more clearly when they turn to him. Often, when they don't hear him on Earth, it's because they shut him out or ignore him.

If you're with a human and shouting at each other across a field, it can be hard to hear one another. When people become separated from God through sin and then refuse to seek him, it's natural that it becomes harder for them to hear him. If you're close to him, you can hear him pretty well, because the spiritual distance between you is smaller. When you're in heaven, you can hear him perfectly, because the distance between you is nonexistent. When you're far away from him, it's harder to hear him, and then we don't even try to walk across the field over to him to hear him better. In fact, we start walking the opposite direction and then start whining that if he wants us so much, why doesn't he just scream louder?

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Why is God promoting inequality? If you know how to read you can read the Bible. If you're a 90 year old woman in Madagascar that can't read a single word, isn't that unfair?

First of all, the insistence on "equality" is a modern thing that isn't necessarily best for everyone. And in fact, democracies don't even hold to it themselves. Communists have a model of government closer to equality, but doctors in the US are paid one salary and bakers another. Not everyone has equality, and not everyone should.

Everyone should have justice, though. And God gives them that.

[Coffeehouse]

Equality is a modern thing? A fad perhaps? Latest news? Perhaps redundant in the future?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

These are God's words. Shouldn't it be perfectly clear what he means? Does God have a problem with articulation?

There's always more that could be known about anything. I could say, "doesn't the fact that the Bible doesn't say how many times Jesus blinked while wandering in the wilderness show that God has a problem with articulation?" That comment would be nonsense. The fact that God omits some things doesn't mean he has problems with articulation- it just means he chooses to articulate fewer things than you wish he'd articulate. But he chooses what he says and to whom, so tough.

[Coffeehouse]

Well it seems to me that it was not the word of God that brought 200 million Chinese out of disgraceful absolute poverty, but effective economic measures.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Equality is a modern thing? A fad perhaps? Latest news? Perhaps redundant in the future?

A kid born of a doctor is born wealthy. A kid born of a baker is born less wealthy. The two are unequal. But why shouldn't they be? No one deserves or needs absolute equality. If everyone had absolute equality we'd all be clones, absolutely the same person with the same life experiences and advantages or disadvantages. That would be a very weird and not a very desirable world. So the existence of inequalities is good. Some inequalities are bad. Some inequalities are good, others are bad, others ho hum. Not important.

God looks after people and provides opportunities to know him wherever they are. The woman in Madagascar would certainly benefit from having God's Word, but if she's born without it, perhaps God wants for her to experience its absence and so have a much harder life, only to be so much more overjoyed when she comes to it in the afterlife. Having a harder earlier life can make the later part of one's life so much more joyous. Or he might have other motives. God's knowledge is vast and our knowledge is small. Trying to show that God doesn't make sense by saying you don't understand some things about him doesn't make sense at all, because God is supposed to be bigger than we are and to know more than we do. He created the universe, for goodness' sake! If there are things you don't understand, that's to be expected. If there was nothing people didn't understand about the Christian God, that would be a sign that there's a serious problem with Him, for it would show he knows no more than we .

[Coffeehouse]

Then why bother with a God at all? If we are powerless to influence, why bother?

What does God bring of happiness that the absense of God can't bring?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Then why bother with a God at all? If we are powerless to influence, why bother?

What exactly did I say that caused you to ask this?

When we unite with God's will, we desire God's will, pray God's will, and his will is done in answer to our prayers. If we separate ourselves from him as much as we can, how are we going to know what his will is?

I don't understand at all where your question is coming from.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

What does God bring of happiness that the absense of God can't bring?

Everything. The presence of God brings everything that is good and valuable. God is Love. All virtues are derivations of love, so without God, there are no virtues and there is no love. The complete absence of God is the complete presence of evil. God also is life, and without him therefore there is only death. God also loves people's wellbeing, so health is from God. The absence of God is the absence of health, so only physical pain and misery awaits those who separate themselves from him. Suicides or people who immolate or cut themselves, or purposefully deform their bodies, are walking along this part of the path of separation from God already, here on Earth. So is everyone who does anything evil, for anything evil is a separation from God, and everything good that we do is a degree of unification with his will and identity.

Everything good has its heart in God, so to completely separate ourselves from God is to completely separate ourselves from all that is desirable and worthwhile. To partially separate ourselves from God is to separate ourselves from some of what is desirable and worthwhile. Complete separation is Hell. It is self-selected. God doesn't throw anyone into hell- they go there themselves because they want to, and they suffer an eternity of misery as a consequence. God didn't even invent hell. Humans and demons invented it for themselves, for in its essential nature, it is the state of being separate from God, and separation from God is entirely self-chosen. God's will is for its reverse. He knows how terrible hell is and does everything he can to bring people to heaven. Sometimes he even destroys nations to try to increase the unity of humans with his will, to get some of them to repent and save themselves from their own evil desires. And he has revealed his truth all around humans, everywhere they look and in their ears all the time. As Jesus said in the scripture, "He who has ears, let him hear!" We close our ears to his voice and then grumble at him for not screaming louder.

Well it seems to me that it was not the word of God that brought 200 million Chinese out of disgraceful absolute poverty, but effective economic measures.

How do you know God didn't use those economic measures to help them? How do you know he didn't inspire the initiative and ideas that people used to create this change? How do you know it wasn't an answer to the prayers of believers?

Your opinion is entirely guesswork, and there isn't any evidence at all to back it up.

[Tessar]

Coffeehouse for the effective purpose of a debate, right now this appears to be extremely unbalanced since it looks like you're just coming up with similar question after similar question for the sake of having Lief write you a reply that's 10x its length.

I don't agree with many of the things that Lief says, but you're attacking things that are not stated. For instance just to touch on one, what does the economic state of China have to do with the bible? As I recall the bible talks a lot about spiritual wealth, but never promises you heaps of gold and diamonds .

The constitution of the USA also states that men are equal. It does not force the wealthy to give all of their money out so that everyone has exactly the same amount of money. It's talking about a different kind of equality.


There are other things I could get into, but I wont because I am not a debater. However, I gotta say I don't think it's particularly great how you're treating Lief. This is less a debate and more like you're trying to interrogate him without putting out much effort yourself to explain your actual view point on the subject.

This is nothing to do with me being a mod, before someone raises the hue and cry--I'm not threatening anyone with bannings or saying you can't do what you're doing. I'm saying that I believe you should reconsider the way in which you are structuring your argument at the moment.

[Nautipus]

Tessar- I agree.

Coffeehouse- While Lief's responses are entertaining, consise, and articulated, it doesnt meant that you arent allowed. Please, share some of your own beliefs for us, it would definately be a topic I would like to see discussed.

Lief- good points my firend. A very insightful read, I must say.

[Lief Erikson]

Coffeehouse, like Tessar and Nautipus, I too am eager to hear more about your own personal religious (or non-religious) views, and on what evidence or reasoning they are based.



I'm very glad you enjoyed my posts, Nautipus .

[Coffeehouse]

It's entirely up to Lief to answer my questions. If a 4-paragraph answer is what he would like to use every time.. If he feels that they are questions he doesn't want to answer, then let him decide that for himself. I'm sure he does not need defending. The questions I am posing I feel are relevant, and if he can't see the revelance he can choose not to answer.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Coffeehouse, like Tessar and Nautipus, I too am eager to hear more about your own personal religious (or non-religious) views, and on what evidence or reasoning they are based.



I'm very glad you enjoyed my posts, Nautipus .

As for my view of the world, it's clear, and honest.

In my view the world is exactly what it appears to be, based on everything my senses tell me, and everyway nature interacts with us, that there is no hocus pocus, no fairy tale magical beings floating here and there, always hidden, never being especially constructive.

I believe the reason humans believe in gods and ghosts is multi-layered, but it is only a figment of the imagination. It's a device and it's a solution. The idea of a God is comforting, an all-powerful God that watches over us for all eternity. A God that can welcome us to heaven when we die. It's a comfort, and a clinging on.
Nobody wants things to end completely, the last ending. In my opinion, because nothing whatsoever seems to point in any other direction, death is the end. After it, there is nothing. The body is dead, the brain is dead, it's decomposing and millions of tiny creatures use the leftovers from the body, and the earth swallows whole the body and so it continues. Death spurs life.
And it's a mind-opening choice to make, not to believe in afterlife, because it's nod to the fact that someday it'll all end and my own body will just lie there, until it is completely gone, and that after the light goes out it will stay dark.
But that is why life is so fantastic, so unique, because it's a one-timer and enjoying the finite amount of time you have to live gives you every reason to really enjoy it, to cherish it, because you know that it will end one day. And this is not only a feeling, but embedded in all humans subconsciously. From we grow up we are curious, we want to learn more, we want to experience new things, we want to do so many things before the lights go out.

When I walk out the door on a very cool winter's day and the sky is lightblue, and the stars are up in the fresh night, it's not the wonder of God that strikes me, but the feeling of luck, of being able to feel a simple joy when looking at a very complex piece of machinery. The stars, galaxies, millions of miles away, the moon, the winter season, it's a ballad of complexity and life cycles, and here I stand looking at it all and it all just looks very beautiful, and simple.
It's unique, not because a god made it, but because it came here through incredible chance and incredible if's and buts, and that our species have grown out from the nature of the world and developed so far that we can look at it and reflect on it, enjoy it and fear it.

But I understand the need for religious belief. It's a comfort for many. When you see poor people with nothing it's understandable that the churches and temples and mosques in their towns always fill up, that prayer rings through every home. Painful experiences seem to put humans close to a higher being, a hope.
It's curious that the parts of the world where people are the most well off, living standards being high and general education being high, are also the very same parts where the belief in something supernatural is dimishing and low.
At the same time the culture of religion has a tight hold on the world. So many of the traditions of people is related to religious beliefs and even in the richest countries in the world this tradition and culture is deeply engrained. The institutions of religions, in Christianity and Islam, have been around for a time, and shaking off 2,000 and 1,400-year old traditions isn't done in the blink of an eye.

And so it's a very simple question that comes to mind. When I look at the world, when I experience my life, why would I turn to something that is only seen and understood in a book? In a book where most of the authors remain obscure, unknown, a book that can show me nothing in this world any better than I can understand them from books of science, experience of life and interaction with other people.
Why would I trust a belief in something supernatural, whos entire existence is based on a single book, which I have never felt present in this world?

The world comes out as truly remarkable when one acknowledges that the chance of it being this way is infinitely small, and that one is lucky enough to be born. With a belief in gods and ghosts, for me, comes layers of mystery and simplicity, a degrading of the beauty of it and a dumbing down of the complexity of it. Rather a life and then a final death, then a life lived on the premise that there will be another life after it, last eternally. The former life gives reason to enjoy life like nothing else!