04-26-2006, 12:01 PM | #621 |
Elf Lord
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You certainly can make your case, Lief. I just pointed out that what was recorded was in line with what we know of ancient cosmology in multiple cultures and that it had another attached meaning as well.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
04-26-2006, 02:41 PM | #622 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-26-2006, 04:20 PM | #623 | ||||
Elf Lord
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But I find it hard to accept that the division between the water "above" and "below" was momentary; I understand it as an eternal seperation. Also the clouds - the water in the atmosphere - aren't "above" the firmament (=sky, right?). Quote:
I have another question: from Job 42:7 - Quote:
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(Btw, all the quotes are from sites not the Bible; I don't have the Bible in English. So forgive me if there's anything wrong with the quotes.. ) |
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04-26-2006, 04:25 PM | #624 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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good question - Job's an interesting book! I'll give it a shot later ... gtg now
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-26-2006, 05:53 PM | #625 |
Elf Lord
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RtB,
Job was right because he confronted God with the suffering of the righteous. The other dudes were toeing the party line that all suffering is deserved and the result of sin by the sufferer. God knew that Job was being tested/tried but not guilty of sin. So God rebukes the concept that all suffering is due to the sinful actions of the sufferer. God validates that bad things happen to good people, in modern parlance. God doesn't explain it though.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
04-26-2006, 07:48 PM | #626 | |||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-27-2006, 02:17 PM | #627 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Ooo...that is a good question. There are some questions in Job that are rather difficult! [subliminal]Suffering![/subliminial] I think inked gives a good explanation, though one could doubtless plumb the depths far more.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-27-2006, 06:03 PM | #628 | ||
Elf Lord
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Quote:
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Actually I didn't think of the question.. the Bible teacher presented it and gave a few explanations by twisting the words and their meanings. I looked for a better explanation. |
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04-28-2006, 06:02 PM | #629 |
Elf Lord
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Given the conceptualization of all things as from God directly, and not by secondary agent such as the satan (adversary), Job was right in not attributing all suffering to direct sin in the sufferer and suffering as origined in God. What Job the text is working towards is an understanding of secondary causation as the reason for suffering. Job's counselors (and who doesn't have some such 'friends'?) are corrected by God who says that Job is right about Job. But God doesn't then validate the the whole by an argument in syllogistic form. JOb is right that the innocent suffer, period. But the context of Job is that there are secondary causations for suffering - such as the satan accusing Job before God and getting into a pissing match about Job's faithfulness. Job bears the brunt of the unjust, unfair, undeserved sufferings (but don't forget his wife who also suffered the same losses as Job). The text and conceptualizations open the door for human understanding of secondary causations in general. God, as the source of all being, would be in a sense responsible but not directly. Man's part is to remain faithful under any circumstance. The whole bit about the majesty of God in the whirlwind is offered as a reason to trust God in testings, but it doesn't explain to our satisfaction why that should happen.
Also, Job gets kudos from God for his chutzpah, which is a faith-based lifestyle in his case, and therefore, like Abraham, is justified by his faith. Also, please note that Job was from the land of Uz and not a Hebrew. This is a very subtle observation on the nature of all human understanding of sufferring in the face of God's omnipotence and not just a Jewish understanding per se. Fascinating isn't it!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
07-18-2008, 03:37 PM | #630 |
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im not Catholic either, but my dad's side is. (sorta) i think that when the confess, they mean that since they confessed they sinned, they should be blessed or that they need the blessing to go on in life or something. im not sure, but its something like that. Also,that the Jews DO think that Jesus is only a teacher/prophet, and in some cases, a blasphemer. My dad is a pastor (not Catholic or a rabbi) and he took Jewish history and stuff as a course and that's what he said. Im not going to pressure any1 to be a Christian or anything, so dont get any ideas or anything that im a pushy person or something. ur last ? though, im not sure about.
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07-18-2008, 09:26 PM | #631 | ||
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frodomerryandaragornrock: I don't know about that other stuff, but I think that Jews simply believe that Jesus was a false Messiah. IOW: He wasn't really the Messiah and the real Messiah has yet to come to Earth.
On the water in the sky thing, there is water vapour in the atmosphere. Somewhere between 0 and 4%.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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07-21-2008, 04:47 PM | #632 |
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Yeah, thats true, i didnt really think of that.
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