Gays, lesbians, bisexuals, PART II

[Nerdanel]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Actually, no. My sister is, despite all the efforts of teachers to make her otherwise.


I agree. But since sexuality is such a complex thing I don't think there is something as 'ex-gay'. It strikes me as either you were never actually homosexual to start with or you're just repressing it to be happy and accepted. I doubt homosexuality is curable.

Exactly, that was what I was trying to say.. I don't think anyone's sexuality is curable, and I don't think it's the sexuality itself that changes, but the awareness of yourself, your opinions on what is right, what is acceptable etc, if that makes any sense.

[inked]

Actually, sexuality is malleable. It is not fixed by designer genes in the DNA contrary to what has passed for "science" and the frequently repeated lie. There are some pretty clear differences in statistical data that give strong evidence that homosexuality is a learned behaviour.

The average 2.6% of homosexually identifying individuals is NOT spread equally over geographical areas. The factor varies by a power of ten. Urbanites are much more likely to so identify and range up to 9-10% of populations in some surveys. Rural surveys may have an icidence of 0.5 - 0.6%. These are anonymous surveys, by the way. So, there is pretty good evidence that sociological factors are at work. The old "nurture" aspect of the nature vs nurture debate.

Then there are the individuals who have exited the homosexual life style. Think of it as reverse outing - O my gosh, I'm straight. The incidence is between 30 and 60% successful heterosexual orienting in persons in psychological and religious programs. That's pretty phenomenal evidence for choice and wilful selection, if you consider it.

Here's a link to such a group (religious): http://www.exodus-international.org/

I'll try to locate a non-religious link to a psychological program. Just think though that if you have "alleged" transgendered persons "trapped" in the wrong sex's body, there must be some psychological evaluation and processing to undergo before definitive surgical change. Similarly, it is quite possible that persons who elected homosexuality for whatever variety of reason may also change their minds.

The point is that the sexual aspect of a person is not hardwired by DNA as say a Down's individual is by 3 number 21 chromosomes.

[The Gaffer]

I tend to agree (that sexuality is not fixed from birth), and I think that's the position of most sensible people who've studied the matter. But there are three points to make:

1) I don't see anyone actually making the argument that it is entirely genetic. There is no "lie". It is the usual reactionary tactic of putting up a misrepresentative straw man argument and throwing rocks at it.

2) In that context, "reorientation" programmes are all the more sinister. It reminds me of the Soviet approach to counter-revolutionaries.

3) The key point is that it's largely irrelevant. I prefer red wine over white but that doesn't mean that I should sign up for some indoctrination programme on the merits of chardonnay.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by inked

Nurv, your blindness to the existence and success of the gay agenda doesn't make it less real. I know that every commission in the country routinely notifies 5000 news outlets of its decisions just like in Canada every township has its links to 5000 outlets, right?

Er, what?

Genuinely and thouroughly puzzled,
Nurv

I also agree that sexuality is malleable as in, not fixed. Is it possible to agree with The Gaffer and Inked at the same time!?

Because it is not fixed and not heritable still doesn't mean people can help that they're gay (or not gay) though.

[The Gaffer]

Cross post

Seemingly!

* Waves to Nurv *

Oh, and some data to go along with that:

American Psychiatric Association Position Statement on Conversion Therapies;
American Psychological Association Q&A on homosexuality
Some choice quotes from the latter:

...most scientists today agree that sexual orientation is most likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors.

Human beings can not choose to be either gay or straight.

..some homosexual or bisexual people may seek to change their sexual orientation through therapy, sometimes pressured by the influence of family members or religious groups to try and do so. The reality is that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not changeable.

[Rían]

N.B. - I just love you, Nurv!!!

*huggles*

[Butterbeer]

It's a genuine Nurv lurv in!!

blows kiss to Nurv for no particular reason ...

adds a Gaffer style wave and a Rian style huggle too .... anyone want to raise?

*some cabbage Ri? *

[The Gaffer]

Let's have a polyamorous, metrosexual love-in. Bagsy the top bunk..

[Nurvingiel]

I'll join that lurv in! That makes four of us? Good times!

[Jonathan]

Woah, long post ahead.

Originally Posted by inked

Actually, sexuality is malleable. It is not fixed by designer genes in the DNA contrary to what has passed for "science" and the frequently repeated lie. There are some pretty clear differences in statistical data that give strong evidence that homosexuality is a learned behaviour.

I’ve never heard anyone say that our sexuality is written into our genetic code so I’m quite sceptical to it being a “frequently repeated lie�.
Sexual identity is a complex matter, influenced by many things. It’s all about the brain really. Genes affect our brain a lot. Hormones and many other physiological factors form how the brain functions and influence what we think, what we feel and what we like. Then of course is the environment which also has a huge influence on the brain and also to a great extent determines which genes are to be expressed. As the quote in The Gaffer’s post says – ...most scientists today agree that sexual orientation is most likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors.

Statistical data doesn’t say homosexuality is a “learned� behaviour. That is only one possible answer that could explain the gathered data. Statistics is a science where there are often many possible answers and one must always be careful to try and figure them all out and not just pick one and claim it is correct. It’s often easy to believe there is only one simple answer to explain data and I understand that people with a religious agenda for instance aren’t too eager to think further to find other explanations. But statistics need objectivity and an open mind.

That homosexuality is a “learned� behaviour is only true to a small extent. I’d rather say our sexual identity is a gained characteristic that may change if we are subjected to environmental or bodily changes. There’s a whole lot of psychology involved as well.

The average 2.6% of homosexually identifying individuals is NOT spread equally over geographical areas. The factor varies by a power of ten. Urbanites are much more likely to so identify and range up to 9-10% of populations in some surveys. Rural surveys may have an icidence of 0.5 - 0.6%. These are anonymous surveys, by the way. So, there is pretty good evidence that sociological factors are at work. The old "nurture" aspect of the nature vs nurture debate.

Although I agree sociological factors play a role, I must say the numbers you’re providing isn’t real evidence. Another possible explanation could be that some gays prefer to move to areas where they can meet other gays. Thus, gays might accumulate in a certain area, such as San Francisco
Social and cultural factors do affect the incidence of homosexuality around the globe. Does that mean that sexual identity is a conscious choice – that in cultures where homosexuality is more accepted, people are more likely to make the choice to become homosexuals? No, we can’t jump to such conclusions. Perhaps it is probable that that which a society consider is wrong affects people’s minds on a subconscious level as well. In such a society, a person’s brain would be less likely to promote a sexual preference for the same sex because the subconscious signals that homosexuality is wrong.

To cut it short – yes, surely sociological factors are at work in most cases. Still, that doesn’t mean by far that being gay is a conscious choice.

Then there are the individuals who have exited the homosexual life style. Think of it as reverse outing - O my gosh, I'm straight. The incidence is between 30 and 60% successful heterosexual orienting in persons in psychological and religious programs. That's pretty phenomenal evidence for choice and wilful selection, if you consider it.

Here's a link to such a group (religious): http://www.exodus-international.org/

If people can go gay, it should probably work the other way too
I’m not surprised that in programmes where you’re told that being gay is wrong – people can repress or even change their sexual identity. You can do a lot with cognitive behaviour therapy. However the underlying moral principle in these programmes is that homosexuality is wrong or an illness or just something unwanted. Should we really think that of homosexuality? I for one think not.

I'll try to locate a non-religious link to a psychological program. Just think though that if you have "alleged" transgendered persons "trapped" in the wrong sex's body, there must be some psychological evaluation and processing to undergo before definitive surgical change. Similarly, it is quite possible that persons who elected homosexuality for whatever variety of reason may also change their minds.

The point is that the sexual aspect of a person is not hardwired by DNA as say a Down's individual is by 3 number 21 chromosomes.

It’s not black and white and I dare say most gays can’t simply elect to become straight, just like most straight people elect to turn homosexual all of a sudden. It would “feel wrong�, wouldn’t it? (Could you make a conscious choice to become gay?) The subconscious mind isn’t always easily altered and besides psychological factors, there might be physiological factors to take into account as well.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Let's have a polyamorous, metrosexual love-in. Bagsy the top bunk..

I'm in.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Let the polyamory commence!

[GreyMouser]

Originally Posted by inked

Actually, sexuality is malleable. It is not fixed by designer genes in the DNA contrary to what has passed for "science" and the frequently repeated lie. There are some pretty clear differences in statistical data that give strong evidence that homosexuality is a learned behaviour.

The average 2.6% of homosexually identifying individuals is NOT spread equally over geographical areas. The factor varies by a power of ten. Urbanites are much more likely to so identify and range up to 9-10% of populations in some surveys. Rural surveys may have an icidence of 0.5 - 0.6%. These are anonymous surveys, by the way. So, there is pretty good evidence that sociological factors are at work. The old "nurture" aspect of the nature vs nurture debate.

Think about it.
If you live surrounded by people who think that you are a disgusting pervert bound to burn in Hell:

a) How willing will you be to admit that, even on an anonymous poll?
b) How fast will you get out of that hateful bigoted swamp to a place inhabited by decent tolerant folk?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by GreyMouser

If you live surrounded by people who think that you are a disgusting pervert bound to burn in Hell: ...

Just for the record, I'm a Christian, and I don't think that about gays, nor do any Christians that I personally know.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Just for the record, I'm a Christian, and I don't think that about gays, nor do any Christians that I personally know.

I don't think GreyMouser insinuated that about Christians at all. I do get the feeling though that the Talibans for instance might think that about gays.

[Nurvingiel]

I'm Christian too and obviously I don't think that about gays!

I think what GreyMouser was getting at is that there will be inaccyuracies in the poll given people's reluctance to put personal information on a survey, given the information, their personality, where they live, etc.

[EarthBound]

Sorry to intercede...but my life appears to be "The Social Experiment" at times.....[sigh]

In complete honesty that I feel free to reviel here, my net home away from home, is this......I've only managed to become involved with LTR's with females....resulting in peculair relationships and ultimately finalizing in complete seperation.....[rats!]

So, knowing me as many of you do [insert bizarre DNA genome] I've recently began a life experiment with dating the male species.....

Big change, big difference. I've run into a couple of stumbling blocks but otherwise I'm doing fine with the more natural Girl/Boy relationship. God help me [uh, that's a real prayer by the way] to figure this out. At this point I feel that if some divine healing charge would make me a definative Boy or Girl my many troubles would be a history quickly forgotten. [looks up for lightning bolts]

Truth be told, I'm rather happy with the my more comfortable role [since I'm female in the eyes of the goverment and society anyway]. But while my new BF appears to be quite happy with my gender status....I'm realizing how "incomplete" I am physically.....this DNA 'sitting on a fence' body of mine is giving me pains more than ever....thought it was supposed to get easier as I got older....[sigh]

Anyhoo, big change in life style for EB and I'm about 80% sure it's good...but really, that's about the best it's ever got for me.

So here's the thing.....Fear of God is a very real thing for me...Hope and Faith in being with [someday] those I love and who loved me lies in a deep rooted faith of God [ehh, to wordy for this quick post] So, am I sinning when I am with a girl....or with a man......or should I be a monk/nun!!!????!!!!! ugh!!!!

No wonder I love beer....I'm certain it loves me [gulp gulp gulp!!! LOL]

[Rían]

No need to be "sorry to intercede", EB - it's not interceding when a friend comes by to talk!

I think that since you've chosen to go with the female side, then you need to date men, but really, as long as you're taking it to God then I think you'll be fine. Things won't necessarily be easy, but no one has it easy in this life, and we both know that God does amazing works deep in our hearts through difficulties.

Speaking of difficulties, I took my son to get his ears checked today (he had surgery 2 months ago, and there's a reddish area that needed to be checked). Well, halfway there, I realized that I hadn't transferred his wheelchair into the car I was driving, and it was too late to turn back. And the handicapped parking placard was in the other car, too! So I ended up having to drop him and his sister off by the door and park in the regular parking, then come back and heft him (he's over 60 pounds) to the doctor's office. Luckily, it wasn't far.

Not that that's near as difficult as your situation *Moothug* but I had to vent!

[Butterbeer]

Why fear God, EB?

who preaches this malignant hatred in the name of the lord?

Beer?

Beer is a friend for a short time and at times in need, but it is no more.

The Lord Loves.

any that sayeth differently do the devils work.

ware! Satan's minnions.


Glad you are 80% happy ... and that is indeed NOT normal .... it's way over the odds of any "shangri-la" hallowed land of "normalness" that you crave for...

..80% unhappy ... maybe ...

heh, hows tricks babe?

send me an email, it'd be good to have a chat.

best, BB x x x

[Nurvingiel]

Best of luck EarthBound! Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

I hope everything goes well in the great experiment called life! *hugs*

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by EarthBound

So, am I sinning when I am with a girl....or with a man......or should I be a monk/nun!!!????!!!!!

If that's a serious question, everyone should at least give monasticism a shot, sez I.

No wonder I love beer....I'm certain it loves me [gulp gulp gulp!!! LOL]

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy". Benjamin Franklin.