09-30-2003, 05:11 PM | #621 |
Elf Lord
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"But I can certainly have my well-considered opinions on what kinds of BEHAVIORS are good and beneficial (right? RIGHT? or are you gonna call me intolerant? )"
That is of course, the point of my post. Opinions, viewpoints, and thoughts MUST be exempt from censorship. You wouldn't want anyone forcing you to modify your thoughts because they don't conform would you? Apply the Golden rule people. As for calling you intolerant, I have no idea. I have not observed your behavior. Do you run around at night beating up faggots with a baseball bat for their own good? If so, that would be an example of intolerant behavior. It doesn't matter if your opinions are intolerant or not. They are, and should be, protected. Hell that's why we even protect the Klan's right to free speech. "and one of my opinions is that homosexual BEHAVIOR is harmful," It is certainly your opinion. I have yet to see any data that supports this viewpoint, other than the harm done to such people because they are unaccepted by certain facets of society. My opinion is that no one in their right mind would "choose" to be homosexual, because of the stigma attatched to it in this society. Since I know several people who are relatively sane and homosexual, I can only conclude that they are the way that they are for some other reason than choice. Such as childhood conditioning, genetics, or some combinaiton. As such, I cannot condem anyone for their lifestyle. Even if they had a choice, I will not condem them, I have not walked in their shoes. According to your sourcebook, "Judge not, lest yourself be judged and found wanting". And also according to your sourcebook, not one shall be found righteous. It's not up to you to judge. Even in a secular setting, it's not up to you to judge, unless you were appointed that power by the courts. "and should not be supported by legislation that says its the same as a marriage between a man and a woman." Actually, I view state sanctioned marriage as an intolerable violation of church and state. Marriage is a religious institution, and as such, should NEVER have been sanctioned by the state. Since it is holy, it should be reserved for religious institutions. The state should not perform marriages, or sanction them. Instead it should issue secular contracts between partners for the secular purposes of tax benefits, inheritance, child rearing etc. To allow the state to continue to sanction marriage cheapens the meaning of such an institution, and makes it profane. And Christians keep wondering why the divorce rate is skyrocketing. Sometimes I despair of actually teaching people things. "And you're intolerant if you say I'm intolerant, right?" I would be better off removing the timber from my own eye before I show you the splinter in yours. However since this is a discussion on the difference between thinking and behavior, I can honestly say I don't care if your viewpoint is intolerant or not. It's your behavior that matters.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
09-30-2003, 06:33 PM | #622 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Accepting a possible law you don't agree with is not persecution of you. It is a rejection of what you believe. Ironically, it forces you to choose between tolerance and rebellion. Read The Rebel by Camus if you haven't already. It's a wonderful treatise on the subject. The gay marriage is complex because at the level of personal contrct the gays have a valid case for the right to enter into a civil contract. As for the religious aspect of marriage, there is a strong tradition in Christianity against homosexuals (except the episcopalians) and churches can't be forced to sanction them. If I believe people I don't like should be killed am I persecuted because there is a law preventing the actualization of my utopia? NO!
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 09-30-2003 at 06:34 PM. |
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09-30-2003, 07:25 PM | #623 |
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Go Cirdan!
Ditto to everything Cirdan said. |
09-30-2003, 07:39 PM | #624 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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*does "cabbage patch" dance for Ruinel*
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
10-01-2003, 04:00 PM | #625 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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* no one cheers for me *
* feels sorry for self * BTW, as the thread starter, I'd like to say this OT discussion is fine with me - it's a rather interesting one.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-01-2003, 04:13 PM | #626 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 10-01-2003 at 04:14 PM. |
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10-01-2003, 04:49 PM | #627 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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What's so interesting here is to read the various definitions of tolerence, and how they start to change ...
Just for fun, here are 3 defs from my dictionary: Quote:
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The second verse - yes, quite right We're all in the same boat, and we all of us need a savior to bear the burden of our sins and make us righteous before God. I certainly hope I've never conveyed the idea that I think I'm better than anyone else, because I don't feel that way at all. Much of what people call "good" in me is not a result of any effort of mine, but a result of a good upbringing in a safe environment (IOW, I've never been temped to steal, so it's no credit to me that I don't steal!) The third verse - yes, of course - again, it relates back to (and even elucidates) the first verse you quoted. To be more precise, you probably should have quoted the whole section (the first verse is Matthew 7:1, the third is Matthew 7:3!) But continue on, and see that after removing our own logs, we ARE instructed to help our brother with the splinter in his eye. And to do that, we must be able to make a judgement. But if we concentrate on our own plentiful batch of logs in our own eyes, we will help our brother with mercy and love and compassion, not with a critical, malicious attitude. After all, Satan is the one who accuses us with malice; Jesus is the one who shows us our sins to heal us.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 10-01-2003 at 04:50 PM. |
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10-01-2003, 05:04 PM | #628 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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On topic: I don't think evidence is necessary for creationism. Evidence is a scientific concept. Creationism is a superstition. If one chooses to believe aliens seeded the earth with humans, for instance, no evidence could sway that person either way, so why bother? Inductive and deductive reasoning should not be wasted on people who resort to faith in the face of all proofs opposite to their opinions.
Off topic: Their attitudes of sexual control over other people are just further proof that they should not be allowed to rule.
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cya Last edited by Elfhelm : 10-01-2003 at 05:06 PM. |
10-01-2003, 05:16 PM | #629 | |||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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1. A girl wants to join the men's olympic swimming relay team. She claims they are intolerant because they insist that the men's olympic swimming team should consist of men. And they are also intolerant because they insist that the people they choose have to be the fastest swimmers. 2. Arnold Schwarzenegger (sp?) has a valid claim to intolerance because he can't run for president in the US. 3. A convicted pedophile wants to work in a day care nursery. He claims that they are intolerant because they don't accept pedophiles as nursery workers. And I could go on and on ... the point is that marriage is not formed by a committee and subject to review ("let's see - shall it be man/woman only, or man/tree, or woman/woman/woman/woman/man, or what?") - it has been the natural and basic standard for a family across time and civilization, and for excellent reasons. Any man and any woman is free to marry, but marriage means a union with the opposite sex. It's a definition - just like a person on the men's olympic swimming team must be a man, and one of the fastest swimmers in the nation. Quote:
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I think men and women are wonderful! I adore being a woman, and I've always really liked men (and prefer working with them, as I did for many years as an engineer in the radar industry). And men and women are different, and that's wonderful and fun and interesting, and a marriage is a glorious combination of their differing aspects. And a mom has unique qualities that make her the best teacher in some areas to both a son and a daughter, and a dad has unique qualities that make him the best teacher in some areas to both a son and a daughter. And homosexual marriages deprive children of the wonderful benefits of a man/woman marriage. But now I'm OT on the OT discussion, as I only meant to talk about tolerance. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 10-01-2003 at 05:21 PM. |
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10-01-2003, 05:38 PM | #630 |
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logic?
Killing people, by definition, hurts others. Gay love hurts nobody. Wanting to stop gay love hurts people. It is wrong.
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cya |
10-02-2003, 07:35 AM | #631 |
Elf Lord
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"So using that verse against someone saying that a certain action or attitude is wrong is clearly incorrect. "
If you are judging a behavior that is an indelible mark on who that person is, then yes, you are judging them, not the behavior. Especially related to the fact that someone's sexual orientation isn't a choice, and the behavior is instinctive. It's quite applicable. It would be no different than saying an alcoholic's behavior makes them a morally corrupt person, instead of a sick person. Except that in the case of a homosexual, there isn't a mental or physical illness, just different wiring. And the behavior isn't maladaptive or degenerative. Though I'd find it interesting to see you try to argue differently. I find it morbidly amusing when modern Christians say that they love the sinner and hate the sin, then proceed to try to cut the sinner into little pieces to remove the sin. As for the second verse, I don't know if you are familiar at all with Gnostic interpretations, but it has a different shade of meaning. Jesus was an elevated human, and as such was indeed fallible, and subject to temptation. Not to mention a perspective that was based, whether through default or design, on a barbaric middle-eastern culture that stoned "sinners", advocated slavery, and various other wonderful practices. He was indeed an enlightened individual, but you can only work so much with people who barely understand the concept of enlightened self interest. As such, I don't put any stock in such prohibitions, not to mention, I don't actually remember him particularly identifying homosexuality as any worse than regular old fornication. And lord knows we've all been doing enough of that after church picnics... "we ARE instructed to help our brother with the splinter in his eye. And to do that, we must be able to make a judgment." Actually, I'm trying to. She seems a bit stubborn. As for making a judgment, no. I'm advocating acceptance, humility, and tolerance. I'm not qualified to judge another person spiritually, nor morally outside the bounds of what social norms are, and I can't do it secularly outside of tightly proscribed powers granted to citizens. "After all, Satan is the one who accuses us with malice; Jesus is the one who shows us our sins to heal us." Interesting that you bring up the old concept of the adversary(s) as one who confronts. They served the very same purpose under the old testament. So I take it that you wouldn't condone any malice at all to homosexuals, but you just want to "heal" them? Even though most current psychology seems to insist that doing so would be akin to destroying their identity? Imagine, just for a second, that for some odd reason, you were the one who was considered "queer" (in the old english Tolkein usage of the word). And all these people who knew what was good for you decided that you should be attracted to women. Not because they had any empirical knowledge that it was better, but because that was the way god had intended for you to be (which is odd, since you obviously turned out differently), and you were committing a sin because you obviously chose somehow to be attracted to men. Not to mention that some of them would gladly call you names behind your back or too your face, or even kill you... So we're going to nicely tell you that you are perverted, and unwholesome, and doing terrible harm to yourself and society, because we so sweetly know what's right for you. Because some dead middle-easterner who probably was homophobic due to unspecified trauma's recorded it in a book along with other prohibitions about laying down with goats and eating with the wrong hand and the best way to sacrifice animals. You may not be displaying the malice, but there's plenty enough coming from the pews to make up for it. But if you LIKE bible quotes, here's a puzzle for you: Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 10-02-2003 at 07:45 AM. |
10-02-2003, 03:18 PM | #632 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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Here's a little humor that has been going around the internet regarding the application of archaic laws to our modern life. Hope you all enjoy it!
1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord. (Lev. 1:9) The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? 2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? 3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual cleanliness. (Lev. 15:19-24) The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. 4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? 5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? 6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? 7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? 8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die? 9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? 10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev. 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
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cya Last edited by Elfhelm : 10-02-2003 at 03:21 PM. |
10-02-2003, 03:40 PM | #633 |
Lord of the Pants
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*laugh*
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10-02-2003, 04:00 PM | #634 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-02-2003, 04:03 PM | #635 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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The OT laws were for our instruction, during that time period, and used to point out our tendency to sin, and to illustrate the need for a substitutionary sacrifice, which was perfectly fulfilled at the right time by Jesus
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-02-2003, 04:31 PM | #636 | |||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-02-2003, 04:38 PM | #637 | ||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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more from Blackheart's post (why do people pick names like that, anyway? )
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So - acc'd to Blackheart's standards, apparently I'm tolerant towards homosexuals.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 10-02-2003 at 04:42 PM. |
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10-02-2003, 05:06 PM | #638 | |
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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10-02-2003, 05:22 PM | #639 | |
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A little sidenote here:
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"I am an outlaw, I was born an outlaw's son. The highway is my legacy, on the highway I will run." |
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10-02-2003, 05:44 PM | #640 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Wow - and you'd prob. get fired if you didn't! Again, it's NOT tolerance that we're seeing here on the part of homosexual activists - it's intolerance.
Snowdog's post reminded me of something Cirdan said about being forced to do things against our beliefs (and BTW, I doubt if Snowdog will be forced to attend a play that extols the virtue of true marriage!) Cirdan pointed out that I wasn't being forced to marry a woman, and apparently drew the conclusion that because of this, laws saying that homosexual marriage is OK shouldn't affect/bother me (is that close enough, Cirdan?) Cirdan, if laws were passed saying that it's ok for people to kill anyone they want to, would you say it's ok with you because you weren't being forced to kill anyone? (and please don't say I'm equating homosexuals with murderers! It's obvious I'm NOT - but I AM pointing out logical inconsistencies with people's arguments.)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |