09-02-2006, 10:39 AM | #621 | |
Elf Lord
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Furthermore, I think another important thing to note in this chapter is that its main objective is to explain that a son doesn't die for the father's sin but for his own sin. The chapter is trying to explain that this is fair to a culture which believed differently. The purpose of the chapter wasn't to lay down specific times or situations in which the death penalty was to be used. The Penateuch does that. Rather, it was doing something rather like we do when explaining something. When we want to make an explanation, we might say, "Even if five million is multiplied by zero, the answer is still zero." We're using a big number in order to explain to a someone that zero is the result no matter what number you multiply by zero. We use this form of explanation in other things too. For example, in my favorite sport fencing an instructor might say, "even if you do a perfect lunge, your body arching out perfectly following your arm and your blade tip touching your opponent's jacket and making a perfect touch, and the director doesn't see it, you don't get the point." I think that in this chapter, the Lord is doing the same thing. He's taking a whole bunch of evil sins, lumping them all together and saying, "even if a wicked man does all these things and then turns to righteousness, he will be forgiven." He's not laying out exactly what crimes deserve the death penalty. If you want to argue that the death penalty is used too frequently in the Old Testament, you probably would do best to check out the Pentateuch.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-02-2006 at 10:51 AM. |
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09-02-2006, 04:42 PM | #622 | |||||||||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Anyway, the soul is the principle of life according to the ancients; I imagine this confused your footnoters. Quote:
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In the second place, even if it were a physical death, such exegetical technique as you attempt there is more like the art of the contortionist than that of the scholar. Quote:
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Then why is one of the common arguments for the death penalty that it helps the family of a murder victim? How can it help, except to satisfy their thirst for vengeance? Quote:
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09-02-2006, 04:44 PM | #623 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Sin is a singular noun. It's not like "sheep", where it can be either. "Sins" in the plural. I checked the Vulgate, and it has the singular "iniquity".
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09-02-2006, 04:48 PM | #624 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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I know this is slightly off you guys' topic but....I have been wondering...Catholics believe that Mary was born without Original sin...how can the Bible say that we have all sinned if she was without sin? did she commit some venial sin later in life? I'm confused! |
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09-02-2006, 04:52 PM | #625 | |
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09-02-2006, 05:03 PM | #626 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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But anyway, Arien, the Bible can say so, because this is a figure of speech. Aristotle mentions this in the Rhetoric, where he says that a species may be used to signify the genus, "all" being a species of the genus "many". Or, of course, there is the fact that it "all men" is not quite the same as "every man", but refers more to the universal than to each individual particular.
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09-02-2006, 05:05 PM | #627 | |
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09-02-2006, 05:25 PM | #628 | |
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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09-02-2006, 05:32 PM | #629 |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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thanks boys! you two are quite handy to have around!
I know as a Catholic that we don't take everything in the Bible as law since we believe that the Majesterium and Oral Tradition play a vital part. And I was aware that the Orthodox differ from the Catholics regarding Mary's Immacualte Conception. Do the Orthodox believe in Mary's perpetual virginity? I mean what is the main reason for the Schism? The Pope? |
09-02-2006, 05:32 PM | #630 | |
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09-02-2006, 05:35 PM | #631 | |
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Ah yes, schism reasons: Pope's Absolute Authority in East Filioque Leavened and Unleavened bread (not big deal! )
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09-02-2006, 05:35 PM | #632 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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It's good to hear that I have some use.
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09-02-2006, 05:37 PM | #633 | |
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09-02-2006, 05:41 PM | #634 |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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so can Catholics receive the Eucharist at Orthodox Chruches and vice versa? I know that we each honor and awknowledge each other's Sacraments. I've always wanted to go to an Orthodox Mass...and also to an Eastern Catholic Mass...unfortunately for me, there are no Eastern Catholic Churches in my area I would have to go up to Chicago. There are 3 Orthodox Churches in my city though.
and what exactly is Filioque? |
09-02-2006, 05:42 PM | #635 | |
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09-02-2006, 06:07 PM | #636 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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You can, however, go to the Divine Liturgy in an Orthodox Church. Just A) Make sure you get to a Catholic Church, to fulfill your obligation, and B) don't receive. I myself considered making a retreat at a Coptic Orthodox monastery over the summer, though I decided it would be silly to make a retreat where I couldn't receive. While you are right that we acknolwedge the validity of Orthodox sacraments, to say that they do likewise is a generalisation. It varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and while many affirm the validity of our sacraments, some do not; some even deny our baptism, re-baptizing converts from Catholicism. Filioque is a word inserted into the Creed: "Et [credo] in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem, qui ex Patre Filioque procedit"; "And [I believe] in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and the Vivifying One, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son". It is an affirmation of the Double Procession, namely, the belief that the Holy Spirit proceeds not only from the Father, but also from the Son. Most Orthodox consider it heretical, and those who do not censure Rome for inserting the word without a General Council.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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09-02-2006, 06:35 PM | #637 | ||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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Also, it is written in the Epistles that sometimes when people are judged in the body, this saves them in spirit. Furthermore, it is just naturally right that everyone should get what they deserve, be it good or bad. But I believe in mercy too, which is why I don't believe in drawing and quartering, even though that might be deserved as a punishment for some crimes. Quote:
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Yet he also fulfilled it inside people's hearts, which is why he taught that the kingdom of heaven is in the heart. Quote:
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Paul says in the Epistles that the Lord will always discipline those he loves. The Father gives us spankings, just as any (or most, I should say) loving fathers will do for their children. Justice still exists, but only as a last resort after mercy is offered at every prior opportunity. If mercy is rejected, then God has nothing left to offer but justice. This is how he behaves very consistently in the Old Testament and the New, offering mercy again and again, until there is nothing left to offer but justice.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-02-2006 at 06:36 PM. |
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09-02-2006, 07:20 PM | #638 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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09-03-2006, 09:26 PM | #639 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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09-03-2006, 10:23 PM | #640 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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