10-29-2004, 05:59 PM | #621 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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10-29-2004, 06:04 PM | #622 | ||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Maybe there could be a limit where 60% is unanimous, etc so large majorities are not counted as splits. It's still up to each state, no matter what.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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10-29-2004, 06:10 PM | #623 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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10-29-2004, 06:14 PM | #624 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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This thread is temporarily closed, until I can go through it and delete the flames and personal attacks. Closing.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
10-29-2004, 07:39 PM | #625 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Re-opened. Keep it civil people.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
10-29-2004, 10:37 PM | #626 |
Quasi Evil
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Hey i go away for a day and a bar fight breaks out in my thread.
Oh and i dont really understand how Hawaii would be a non factor in a close election decided by percentage rather then all or nothing electoral votes. the campaigning of late has been relegated to 3 or 4 midwest states and PA and florida. NOT the 70% of states with less then 7 electoral votes.
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10-30-2004, 06:49 AM | #627 | ||
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Yeah...erm... anyway I actually typed up a post a while ago that had a error when I posted it, but it was about electronic voting and immigration. I don't feel like typing it out.
But I realized that many electoral systems are probably not based solely on the popular vote. In Canada, we don't have an electoral college, but the country is instead divided into ridings (there are 303 in total). There are about 40 in British Columbia, 4 in Nova Scotia, 120 in Ontario etc. (rough guesses) The Member of Parliment (MP) for each riding is elected by popular vote. The leader of the party that wins the most seats (IOW the party where the most MPs get elected) becomes the Prime Minister, and the party forms the government. The role of an MP is a lot like that of a Senator, but you could equate the process of electing an MP with gaining an Electoral College vote. Israel has a system entirely based on popular vote. Each party ranks the members that run in an order of preference, starting with the leader at 1. So if a party gets 3% of the vote, members 1, 2, and 3 get a seat in the government. Maybe Radagast the Brown could explain that better. This system leads to a lot of minority and/or coalition goverments. (In Canada, we have a minority government right now, but since it's only a tad less than 50% of the seats, they've so far avoided having to form a coalition. In the USA, you can't have a minority government, but I forget why now [JD you did explain it well though ].) Anyway, do you think my analogy works?
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10-30-2004, 12:41 PM | #628 | |
The Blobbit
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Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...)
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The point was as regards to the current political situation: the ones entering into wars are Republicans. The ones supporting the wars, then not, then supporting, then not... And if we want to point fingers about Woody Wilson, where was the Republican delegation at Versailles?! [Afterthought]: I said all of that and what you got me on was a misinterpretation (my fault for lack of clarity) of the flippant use of the word 'whimp'? Which we seems to have disagreements on how to spell anyway... PS: Who is Prime Minister Jeeves?! PPS: The point as regards to troops is correct and wise. I was however referring to political bravery... in the current climate. Yes kudos to Wilson and FDR. Boy, did you save our behinds... twice...
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. Last edited by Janny : 10-30-2004 at 12:49 PM. Reason: Afterthought-a-roonies |
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10-30-2004, 01:13 PM | #629 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-30-2004 at 01:19 PM. |
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10-30-2004, 01:15 PM | #630 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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continued...
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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10-30-2004, 06:35 PM | #631 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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For those who are interested, in particular Nurv, here is what our (Plainsboro NJ)
ballot looks like. We receive a sample ballot in the mail which shows us what the "computer whiteboard" will display, along with instructions. (sorry about the width of it) As you can see - in addition to voting for Republican and Democratic Parties - I can vote - Constitution Party, Socialist Party, Socialist Equality Party, Independent, Libertarian Party, Green Party and Socialist Workers Party. I can also write in anyone I choose - including myself. Not only do we vote for President, but we are voting for my districts House of Representative (NJ's 12th district). Sheriff, Board of Chosen Freeholders and Township Committee (who are running unopposed). Below are the directions. These also appear on the "computer whiteboard". I don't see how much easier voting can be and if someone can't work this simple mechanism - most likely they should not be voting.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-30-2004 at 06:37 PM. |
10-30-2004, 08:39 PM | #632 | ||||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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The old saying regarding this: There is a thin line between bravery and stupidity. And to paraphase Cliton's apology to Japan: Sorry for the nuking but you asked for it.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 10-30-2004 at 08:49 PM. |
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10-30-2004, 09:08 PM | #633 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Political Perfection....
I think evaluating the war on a day-to-day basis has cut both ways. Declaring victory too early and getting jittery about daily events. Looking at the effort as a whole, it is too early to say failure of success. The article JD posted could also be critical of the Rumsfeld doctrine of a high tech precision, low casualty philosophy that has failed to have the effect he predicted.
FDR took as much time as possible to prepare for our inevitable entry into the war. Ike understood that overwhelming firepower required boots on the ground to see it through. It is absurd to believe we can run a trouble-free war with low casualties on both sides when large areas and populations are involved. That is what were we lead to believe would be the case in Iraq. The "hard work" line came out only after things started going sour. Wars are always messy, chaotic, and destructive. That's why the should not be viewed as some sort of shoot 'em up video game where no one will really get hurt and there is a happy ending with hugs and handshakes all around. The "Shock and Awe" now is how badly done the planning was for this effort. That's what happens when politicians set the agenda for the war.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
10-30-2004, 09:25 PM | #634 |
Elf Lord
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The shock and awe part for me is that any body had any expectation that this would be over when the opposition army was wiped out. Wouldn't happen in America either. But, what can you expect from people who thought the worst thing about 9/11 was the disruption of cell phone communication?
Nothing worthwhile doing is easy or done quickly. Everyone has forgotten the video war of the first week and thought we'd just stroll out after a day at Chucky Cheese's, from the sound of it. So, if Kerry's elected we just pull up and leave, huh? I doubt it. It'll be highly entertaining to hear his reasons for staying, but I do not believe I'll have to endure that!!!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-30-2004, 09:26 PM | #635 | ||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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The high tech precision part did work on the army part of the war - not on the peace part. For one thing - where the hell are our drones - why aren't they patrolling Fallujah? The insurgents must move sometime. Quote:
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In terms of other wars - including Vietnam that people like to compare Iraq to - the amount of injured and killed military personnel and civilians is a drop in the bucket. I'm not saying that each life isn't important, but people have come to expect zero casualities and that is simply unrealistic.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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10-31-2004, 12:12 AM | #636 |
Elf Lord
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Janny,
Thanks for the PM to help me locate your comments. I lost them in the fog of computer verbal warfare! "How on earth can you take lessons from the past from fighting Hitler to use in the modern world? Shall we make pals with Russia to get them to open up a second front in our war against Terrorland? No. Because the terrorists don't all happen to be in one place." Thucydides again! Hitler was a great terrorist. He had the backing of the German people due to the postWWI errors of the then allies. He was still a terrorist. he just happened to have the foremost mechanized army in the European states and he employed it. Terrorism on a massive scale. Ask the Poles. After Breslan and the murder of hundreds by terrorists shouting "ALLAH is great" I don't imagine it would be out of line to ask Russian assistance. If it isn't already available. The more nations we have pursuing and doing something about terrorists, the better. No nation is immune. Aid workers being kidnapped and executed... you'd think the frinkin' bloody terrorists would have the miniscule number of brains cells to figure out they are alienating the world, but NNOOOOO! Get a few more countries pounding after their insignificant little murderous impulses, especially ones with a more Islamic mode of justice in practice so they can reap as they sow and get a little Allah don't like you reception, they'd go away. I must confess that your reference to the modern world perturbs me. WWII remains the most mechanized world conflict involving every landmass and ocean on the planet by the most number of nations. Do you allege it wasn't modern on chronological snobbery alone. It was also the only war to utilize the most advanced weapons known (nuclear). Virtually every major advance, including the means of our communication, came about as a result of that conflict. WE should certainly be doing a disservice to those who fought the aggressors if we ignore the fact that they resisted international terrorism on a grand scale. And WE should not ignore the fact that these pigheaded and hearted terrorists would do the same had they the armies, air forces, and navies to accomplish it. As it is, they are looking for innocents to murder and the more the better. Why stope at beheadings when you can get biological weapons or dirty nukes? 9/11 is a constant reminder of what can happen. That prior terorist acts were essentially ignored was the fault of the 2 term Democrat Clinton and the deprivation of funds for the same by that sitting President and the currently running then military reductionist, FBI / CIA / NIA de-funder John Kerry. You used the word wimp earlier. It applies to Kerry's documented position(s) during the prior terrorist acts and subsequent behavior. Bush = Churchill Kerry = Chamberlain terrorists = Hitler Those who do not know history are bound to repeat it.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-31-2004, 12:57 AM | #637 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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10-31-2004, 01:42 AM | #638 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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After watching the 2000 Election hearings on C-SPAN where the news media had to go before Congress and explain how they screwed up so badly in their reporting - I feel that we should eliminate election night coverage all together. My personal feeling is that the election announcement should be made from the House of Representatives (who actually "counts" the official electoral college votes). Each state can have a representive stand up and declare how many votes they have and who they go to. it would eliminate the damn exit polling - it would elimnate this crap with "popular vote", and it also eliminates the media from announcing the eastern state results before the west even has a chance to finish voting.. It's the way it was MEANT to be.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-31-2004 at 01:43 AM. |
10-31-2004, 01:47 AM | #639 | ||
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We have the same problem in British Columbia (the furthest west, and 4 and a half hours behind the eastern most provinces).
They're done counting the votes in the east before our polls close. Since most of the population lives in the east, the government is pretty much decided by the time they start counting our votes. That makes some British Columbians feel like their vote doesn't count. (But your vote always counts!) Our election night coverage is really good though. They could at least wait until everyone is done. How rude, it's like serving yourself desert before other people are done the main course. I think putting the popular vote is okay because it's interesting. However, it leads some people to think that popular vote actually decides who wins (it does not in either Canada or the USA), and that when a government (or President) wins with a bit less than the popular vote, they feel like someone made a mistake. This is obviously wrong, so maybe the significance of the popular vote (which is not very much) should be explained when they tally it. It's a good indicator of who's going to win, and it's the best you can do before the election, but it doesn't actually determine the outcome. There's a move here to have more proportional representation.
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 10-31-2004 at 01:51 AM. |
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10-31-2004, 01:54 AM | #640 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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