REAL debate thread for RELIGION

[Rían]

Is that what you meant, Bomb?

And I would agree that many creation stories are fiction, or are part fiction, but given the highly observable fact that we're HERE, wouldn't there have to be ONE that is true?

[Insidious Rex]

ok now my turn!!

Did god make pathogenic viruses? If so did he mean for them to be "alive" or simply objects like a rocks?

Why did god give us such an inefficient knee construction so prone to wear and tear and injury? Even an average engineer could have come up with a better system.

Why did he make the human jaw too small for all its teeth leading to things like impacted wisdom teeth?

Why did god give all other animals EXCEPT us AND other primates the ability to resist scurvey? The gene for resistance to it is broken in us and in other primates. Was god trying to trick us yet again into thinking we are closely related to apes or was it just a massive coincidence?

Why do cell organelles such as mitochondria, chloroplasts, etc. have their own DNA, which is inherited separately from the rest of an organisms' genetic material? Why should the code for small elements within each eukaryotic cell be inherited separately and differently from that which forms the rest of the organism in all its intricacy: the leaves, bone, teeth, eyes, antennae, brains? An odd design. And the numerous structural and biochemical resemblances between these organelles and existing parasitic bacteria are mere coincidences, of course?

Why did god make it such that ungulates could only derive nutrition from their food by inserting bacteria in their stomach? Why not give them enzymes like we have so they wouldnt need alien life inside them and chambers of different stomachs? What a huge silly design. What ever happened to effeciency in design here people!

Why do burrowing animals or animals that live in the dark have non functioning eyes if they were created in full form?

And finally... the genetic code itself. DNA has a remarkable copying fidelity... yet mutations (errors) happen all the time. If the Good Lord wanted all his creations to be separate, immutable kinds, all he had to do was make the copying mechanism flawless. Meiotic recombination and outcrossing (sex) would still make different individuals. Hey presto: no evolution. But the system is flawed... so does god want evolution?

[Rían]

This should prob. be in the creationism thread, but the quick answer is: please list all the incredibly intricate and amazing things that take place every second of every day for a human body to work, even WITH bad knees You couldn't even begin to compare the two.

*hands IRex some tylenol, because she has a little idea that his knees are sore ... *

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
...And I would agree that many creation stories are fiction, or are part fiction, but given the highly observable fact that we're HERE, wouldn't there have to be ONE that is true?

No... there are several versions of the Little Mermaid, and none of them are true. Just because something was written a long time ago, and just because it was an attempt to understand where primitive man came from, does not make it true.

BTW... if I got what Bombadillo was saying as wrong... then I apologize to him.

[Rían]

But there must be ONE true account of how we really got here, right? Now you, personally, favor the fictional account called evolution , while I favor the true account, which is described in Genesis.

Teasing aside, all I mean is that regardless of what story people think is true, ONE version MUST be true. Perhaps we've never even heard the true account, but both you and I think we have, Ruinel - you favor evolution, I favor creation by the God of the Bible.

[BeardofPants]

Hmmm, is that steam coming out of my ears? *ear wax pops out like a cork* Rian, what have you been up to?!

Rian, you naughty thing, need I point out that the bible has been the best piece of best-selling fiction for a very long time? *runs away with Rian's pants*

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Does anyone have any other creation stories they can share? I'm always up for some fiction.

well, I don't think that mine's anything new but I believe that God created everything...it could have happened in 6 days or millions of years...or perhaps each "day" in the Bible means a certain amount of time...for example, we measure a "day " by the sun right? well, If I'm not mistaken, the sun wasn't created until the 4th "day" right? so the time period of 24 hours in a day might not really be 24 hours but perhaps thousand of years in a "day" . do I make any sense here? anywho, the main point of my post is to say that wether by evolution or not, at some point I believe that God gave the first man an immortal soul...which is the most important part of a person IMO.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
well, I don't think that mine's anything new but I believe that God created everything...it could have happened in 6 days or millions of years...or perhaps each "day" in the Bible means a certain amount of time...for example, we measure a "day " by the sun right? well, If I'm not mistaken, the sun wasn't created until the 4th "day" right? so the time period of 24 hours in a day might not really be 24 hours but perhaps thousand of years in a "day" . do I make any sense here? anywho, the main point of my post is to say that wether by evolution or not, at some point I believe that God gave the first man an immortal soul...which is the most important part of a person IMO.

*claps hands* Nice story... anyone else want to have a go? We're doing creation stories right now... it doesn't have to be what you believe... you can find other culture's creation stories also and post them here.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Ruinel
*claps hands* Nice story... anyone else want to have a go? We're doing creation stories right now... it doesn't have to be what you believe... you can find other culture's creation stories also and post them here.

thanks the ancient egyptian story is (I think) about the first god (Primary god) Ra (Re) basically....ummmm (how do I say this in a PG-13 forum???) "playing" with himself...until by doing this, either some opthergods came into existance or the world came into existance...I forget ...hope I didn't offend anyone

[Ruinel]

My turn.

Animals, elements, the solar system, and natural phenomena are revered by the Apaches. That which is beyond their understanding is always ascribed to the supernatural.

In the beginning nothing existed--no earth, no sky, no sun, no moon, only darkness was everywhere.

Suddenly from the darkness emerged a thin disc, one side yellow and the other side white, appearing suspended in midair. Within the disc sat a small bearded man, Creator, the One Who Lives Above. As if waking from a long nap, he rubbed his eyes and face with both hands.

When he looked into the endless darkness, light appeared above. He looked down and it became a sea of light. To the east, he created yellow streaks of dawn. To the west, tints of many colours appeared everywhere. There were also clouds of different colours.

Creator wiped his sweating face and rubbed his hands together, thrusting them downward. Behold! A shining cloud upon which sat a little girl.

"Stand up and tell me where are you going," said Creator. But she did not reply. He rubbed his eyes again and offered his right hand to the Girl-Without-Parents.

"Where did you come from?" she asked, grasping his hand.

"From the east where it is now light," he replied, stepping upon her cloud.

"Where is the earth?" she asked.

"Where is the sky?" he asked, and sang, "I am thinking, thinking, thinking what I shall create next." He sang four times, which was the magic number.

Creator brushed his face with his hands, rubbed them together, then flung them wide open! Before them stood Sun-God. Again Creator rubbed his sweaty brow and from his hands dropped Small- Boy.

All four gods sat in deep thought upon the small cloud.

"What shall we make next?" asked Creator. "This cloud is much too small for us to live upon."

Then he created Tarantula, Big Dipper, Wind, Lightning-Maker, and some western clouds in which to house Lightning-Rumbler, which he just finished.

Creator sang, "Let us make earth. I am thinking of the earth, earth, earth; I am thinking of the earth," he sang four times.

All four gods shook hands. In doing so, their sweat mixed together and Creator rubbed his palms, from which fell a small round, brown ball, not much larger than a bean.

Creator kicked it, and it expanded. Girl-Without-Parents kicked the ball, and it enlarged more. Sun-God and Small-Boy took turns giving it hard kicks, and each time the ball expanded. Creator told Wind to go inside the ball and to blow it up.

Tarantula spun a black cord and, attaching it to the ball, crawled away fast to the east, pulling on the cord with all his strength. Tarantula repeated with a blue cord to the south, a yellow cord to the west, and a white cord to the north. With mighty pulls in each direction, the brown ball stretched to immeasurable size--it became the earth! No hills, mountains, or rivers were visible; only smooth, treeless, brown plains appeared.

Creator scratched his chest and rubbed his fingers together and there appeared Hummingbird.

"Fly north, south, east, and west and tell us what you see," said Creator.

"All is well," reported Hummingbird upon his return. "The earth is most beautiful, with water on the west side."

But the earth kept rolling and dancing up and down. So Creator made four giant posts--black, blue, yellow, and white to support the earth. Wind carried the four posts, placing them beneath the four cardinal points of the earth. The earth sat still.

Creator sang, "World is now made and now sits still," which he repeated four times.

Then he began a song about the sky. None existed, but he thought there should be one. After singing about it four times, twenty- eight people appeared to help make a sky above the earth. Creator chanted about making chiefs for the earth and sky.

He sent Lightning-Maker to encircle the world, and he returned with three uncouth creatures, two girls and a boy found in a turquoise shell. They had no eyes, ears, hair, mouths, noses, or teeth. They had arms and legs, but no fingers or toes.

Sun-God sent for Fly to come and build a sweathouse. Girl- Without-Parents covered it with four heavy clouds. In front of the east doorway she placed a soft, red cloud for a foot-blanket to be used after the sweat.

Four stones were heated by the fire inside the sweathouse. The three uncouth creatures were placed inside. The others sang songs of healing on the outside, until it was time for the sweat to be finished. Out came the three strangers who stood upon the magic red cloud-blanket. Creator then shook his hands toward them, giving each one fingers, toes, mouths, eyes, ears, noses and hair.

Creator named the boy, Sky-Boy, to be chief of the Sky-People. One girl he named Earth-Daughter, to take charge of the earth and its crops. The other girl he named Pollen-Girl, and gave her charge of health care for all Earth-People.

Since the earth was flat and barren, Creator thought it fun to create animals, birds, trees, and a hill. He sent Pigeon to see how the world looked. Four days later, he returned and reported, "All is beautiful around the world. But four days from now, the water on the other side of the earth will rise and cause a mighty flood."

Creator made a very tall pinon tree. Girl-Without-Parents covered the tree framework with pinon gum, creating a large, tight ball.

In four days, the flood occurred. Creator went up on a cloud, taking his twenty-eight helpers with him. Girl-Without-Parents put the others into the large, hollow ball, closing it tight at the top.

In twelve days, the water receded, leaving the float-ball high on a hilltop. The rushing floodwater changed the plains into mountains, hills, valleys, and rivers. Girl-Without-Parents led the gods out from the float-ball onto the new earth. She took them upon her cloud, drifting upward until they met Creator with his helpers, who had completed their work making the sky during the flood time on earth.

Together the two clouds descended to a valley below. There, Girl- Without-Parents gathered everyone together to listen to Creator.

"I am planning to leave you," he said. "I wish each of you to do your best toward making a perfect, happy world.

"You, Lightning-Rumbler, shall have charge of clouds and water.

"You, Sky-Boy, look after all Sky-People.

"You, Earth-Daughter, take charge of all crops and Earth-People.

"You, Pollen-Girl, care for their health and guide them.

"You, Girl-Without-Parents, I leave you in charge over all."

Creator then turned toward Girl-Without-Parents and together they rubbed their legs with their hands and quickly cast them forcefully downward. Immediately between them arose a great pile of wood, over which Creator waved a hand, creating fire.

Great billowy clouds of smoke at once drifted skyward. Into this cloud, Creator disappeared. The other gods followed him in other clouds of smoke, leaving the twenty-eight workers to people the earth.

Sun-God went east to live and travel with the Sun. Girl-Without- Parents departed westward to live on the far horizon. Small-Boy and Pollen-Girl made cloud homes in the south. Big Dipper can still be seen in the northern sky at night, a reliable guide to all.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
thanks the ancient egyptian story is (I think) about the first god (Primary god) Ra (Re) basically....ummmm (how do I say this in a PG-13 forum???) "playing" with himself...until by doing this, either some opthergods came into existance or the world came into existance...I forget ...hope I didn't offend anyone

You didn't offend. BTW... can you find the whole story and post it? I think that would be interesting (not the "playing" with himself thing, I mean the story).

[Rían]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Rian, you naughty thing, need I point out that the bible has been the best piece of best-selling fiction for a very long time? *runs away with Rian's pants*

Now there's an interesting question - I believe it's the best-selling book of all time, but what list is it on? I mean, it contains facts and stories.

*decides to wear a skirt today*

BTW, BOP, I'm glad you showed up, because I've been wanting to ask you a question, and this is certainly in your field. If you want to, answer it over in the creation/evolution thread, but you could prob. answer it fairly quickly here.

One of the Mooters awhile back referred to all the masses of evidence of human evolution. The way it was worded made it seem like there were simply thousands of complete, pre-modern-human fossils, neatly laid out in family units, in fully-populated villages. That made me wonder - what ARE the actual (or at least approximate) numbers of pre-modern-human fossils, and what do the finds consist of? (i.e., 1 tooth, 3 teeth and a thighbone, a skull with some teeth and an armbone, etc. ) I've been wondering about this and thought you were the best person to ask this question.


*steals her pants back, throws a hamster down BOP's pants*

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Ruinel
You didn't offend. BTW... can you find the whole story and post it? I think that would be interesting (not the "playing" with himself thing, I mean the story).

here's something I found

Lower Kingdom Creation Myth
Only the ocean existed at first. Then Ra (the sun) came out of an egg that appeared on the surface of the water. Ra brought forth four children, the gods Shu and Geb and the goddesses Tefnut and Nut. Shu and Tefnut became the atmosphere. They stood on Geb, who became the earth, and raised up Nut, who became the sky. Ra ruled over all. Geb and Nut later had two sons, Set and Osiris, and two daughters, Isis and Nephthys. Osiris succeeded Ra as king of the earth, helped by Isis, his sister-wife. Set, however, hated his brother and killed him. Isis then embalmed her husband's body with the help of the god Anubis, who thus became the god of embalming. The powerful charms of Isis resurrected Osiris, who became king of the netherworld, the land of the dead. Horus, who was the son of Osiris and Isis, later defeated Set in a great battle and became king of the earth.

(Upper Kingdom creation story)
At first there was only Nun, the primal ocean of chaos that contained the beginnings of everything to come. From these waters came Ra who, by himself, gave birth to Shu and Tefnut. Shu, the god of air, and Tefnut, the goddess of moisture gave birth to Geb and Nut, the earth god and the sky goddess. And so the physical universe was created. Men were created from Ra's tears. They proved to be ungrateful so Ra, and a council of gods, decided they should be destroyed. Re created Sekhmet to do the job. She was very efficient and slaughtered all but a few humans, when Ra relented and tricked her into stopping. Thus was the present world created.

Against Ra's orders, Geb and Nut married. Ra was incensed and ordered Shu to separate them, which he did. But Nut was already pregnant, although unable to give birth as Ra had decreed she could not give birth in any month of any year. Thoth, the god of learning, decided to help her and gambling with the moon for extra light, was able to add five extra days to the 360-day calendar. On those five days Nut gave birth to Osiris, Horus the Elder, Set, Isis, and Nephthys successively. Osiris became the symbol of good, while Set became the symbol of evil. And thus the two poles of morality were fixed once and for all.

[Nerdanel]

OK, here's a part of the cration myth in Kalevala, Finnish national epic:

195 So the mother of the water,
Water mother, airy maiden,
Raised her knee above the surface
And her shoulder from the wave
As a refuge for the scaup
And a welcome nesting place.

201 Then that scaup, the lovely bird,
Fluttering round and hovering over
Spied the water-mother's knee 200
Lifted from the sea's blue surface;
Took it for a grassy tussock
Or a tuft of new-grown turf.

207 Plies about, flitting here and there,
Settles on the lifted kneecap.
It is there she builds her nest,
There she laid her golden eggs -
Six were the golden eggs she laid,
But the seventh was of iron.

213 She began to hatch the eggs there, 210
Heating up the lifted kneecap;
Brooded one day, brooded two days,
Even on the third day brooding.
Then the mother of the water,
Little mother, airy maiden,
Felt the rising heat upon her,
Felt as if her skin were scorching,
Thought her kneecap was on fire,
That her very veins were melting.

223 All at once she jerked her knee, 220
Agitating every member,
And the eggs rolled in the water
To the tumbling of the tides;
Into bits the eggs were broken,
Shattered into crumbs and pieces.

229 But the eggs and pieces were not
Mixed up with the mud and water
For at once the crumbs grew comely
And the pieces beautiful.
One egg's lower half transformed 230
And became the earth below,
And its upper half transmuted
And became the sky above;
From the yolk the sun was made,
Light of day to shine upon us;
From the white the moon was formed,
Light of night to gleam above us;
All the colored brighter bits
Rose to be the stars of heaven
And the darker crumbs changed into 240
Clouds and cloudlets in the sky.

[Nerdanel]

the story goes on..

245 Quickly now the time goes forward
As the hurrying years pass by
While the newborn sun is shining
And the newborn moon is gleaming.
Still the mother goes on swimming,
Water mother, airy maiden,
Swimming on those peaceful waters
Over misty seawaves wandering.
Before her flowed the liquid deep, 250
Behind her shone the empty heaven.

255 In the ninth year, tenth of summers,
Raised her head out of the sea,
Lifts her crown above the water;
Set to work on her creations,
Hastens on her handiwork,
Out upon the clear sea surface,
Out upon the open ocean.

263 Where she gave her hand a turn
There she put the capes in order; 260
Where her foot struck bottom, there
Grottoes for the fish were formed;
Where the bubbles reached the surface
There the deeps were made still deeper.

269 Where her side had scraped the land
There the level shores appeared;
Where she turned her foot to landward
There the salmon grounds were formed,
And wherever her head touched land
There the broad bays opened out. 270

275 Swimming farther out from shore
She halted on the smooth sea surface
Where she made the little islands.
Then she raised the hidden reefs
Where the grounded ships would founder,
Many a seaman lose his life.

281 Now the islands were in order
And the small isles of the sea;
Pillars for the sky were planted,
Lands and continents created; 280
On the rocks the writs were written"
And the signs drawn on the cliffs.
Yet Vainamoinen is unborn,
Poet eternal not emerged.

289 Old reliable Vainamoinen
Traveled in his mother's womb,
Traveled there for thirty summers
And as many winters too
On the ocean now so peaceful
In that misty world of water. 290

295 He is pondering, he is thinking,
How to live or how survive
In this dismal hiding place,
In this narrowest of dwellings
Where he never saw the moon,
Never got a glimpse of sunlight.

301 So he speaks out in these words,
Says it in these sentences:
"Free me. Moon, and Sun, release me!
Thou, Great Bear, do ever guide me, 300
Lead a man here through strange doors,
Through these unfamiliar gates.
Release me from this narrow nest,
From this shut-in dwelling place!
Guide the traveler to the land,
Child of mankind to the open
To behold the moon in heaven
And to wonder at the daylight,
Get to know the Great Bear's grandeur
Or just to stare up at the stars!" 310

315 Since the moon did not arrive
Nor the sun come to release him,
Alienated from his birth time,
Impatient of this dull existence,
He pushed against his prison lock
Pressing with his nameless finger,
Slid the bony bolt aside,
With his left toe opened it;
Scrabbling with his nails he came
Crawling through the exit door. 320

325 Headlong in the sea he tumbled
With a hand-turn in the waves.
There the man was left alone
In the rough care of the billows.

329 There he floated for five years,
Six, seven, even eight years,
Stopped at last upon the surface
There beside a nameless headland,
On a treeless continent.

335 Stmggling up with knee and elbow 330
He stood up to see the world:
To behold the moon in heaven
And to wonder at the daylight,
Get to know the Great Bear's grandeur
Or just to stare up at the stars.

341 That was the birth of Vainamoinen.
Such the daring poefs descent
From the beautiful who bore him,
From his mother, Ilmatar.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
*steals her pants back, throws a hamster down BOP's pants*

Poor little hampster.

[Ruinel]

Long poem, Nerdanel.

[Nerdanel]

Yeah I know. But I shortened it, and that's just a minor part of the whole book. I haven't read it yet but it's written in old Finnish, and just poems..
Well, I think it would be interesting to read the whole thing, since that was the belief of my ancestors. But it's gone now, "thanks to" Christianity..

I also think it's a rather interesting way to look at creation.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
That made me wonder - what ARE the actual (or at least approximate) numbers of pre-modern-human fossils, and what do the finds consist of? (i.e., 1 tooth, 3 teeth and a thighbone, a skull with some teeth and an armbone, etc. ) I've been wondering about this and thought you were the best person to ask this question.

Okay, I can't remember actual numbers, that's like trying to remember entire geneologies from the bible, lol! BUT, I can tell you the obvious things:

• Complete fossil finds are rare.
• The bones that generally tend to survive are parts of the skull - mostly cranial, as the jaw tends to snap, and break - some bone ends (the shafts generally tend to disintegrate), and dentition. Having said that, Turkana boy, a Homo erectus boy of about 11 years of age, is an almost complete find.
• The more recent hominids have a better chance of surviving the fossil record.
• Up until the Sapiens branchline (incl. heidelbergensis and Neanderthalensis) the family unit was SMALL. From Erectus onwards, they are nomadic. You don't really get whole villages per se, until much much later.

I'm sorry, but even if I knew the numbers approximately, I don't even know how accurate it would be. Anyway, here are some of the 'prominent' finds, which give you an idea on what exactly survives the archaeological/geological record:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html - I think Turkana Boy is the only almost complete find on there!

I don't know who gave you the idea that there are masses of complete skeletons, in villages, but they are not correct. This is a rare phenomenon, at least until the advent of modern Homo sapiens. Even the famous 'Lucy' (named after a Beatles song!) skeleton (Australopithecus afarensis) is only 40% complete, and that's considered to be pretty darned good.

Hope this helps.

Btw: I was just enrolling down at uni, and I decided to take a look through my old dept, and I got all nostalgic! I guess a small part of me still wants to finish that anthropology masters!

[Drgnslyer]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
But how do you reconcile things when two beliefs have directly contradictory statements?

What's the true purpose of religion, in your opinion?

A: The contradictory statements are simply different interpretations altered to better fit the local community, and to make the religion more attractive to the immediate society.

B: In my opinion *mind you this is an opinion only* Religion serves as a social crutch to help us as a group of humans better understand the unexplainable world around us, and to give some feeling of satisfaction that things truly do happen for a reason, as opposed to simple, random events on a collosal scale.

Now, don't get me wrong, i'm a very spiritual person, however organized religion has always made me feel uncertian, and it has lost much of it's appeal to me after such attrocities as crusades, jihads, and corruption.