The Anti-theist Thread

[jerseydevil]

Okay - it's late (4:00am). I've been working all night and maybe my previous post came off a little harsh, maybe this one will too.

I grew up going to catholic school, heretic was a sort of deragatory word. I don't consider myself a "heretic" in the way it is normally used. I just don't believe. You guys are believers - I'm a non-believer. But using the word heretic reminds me of "heretics being burned at the stake". Maybe it's just that I am tired. I'm going to look up the word heretic - now that I said all this - and find out what the dictionary definition is. Maybe the word isn't as negative as I grew up with.

[Rána Eressëa]

And just so no one else gets my defintion of "fairy tale" misread, I'll share it here too, because emplynx is taking it the "wrong" way.

There is more than one definition. And the main one is plainly: a made-up story. I never said it was meant to mislead. I said it was made-up. Therefore, in my terms, I never once called it wrong. But hey, we made up right and wrong too, didn't we?

Honest to God, emplynx, (Eep! I made a biblical reference! ) enlighten me on your terms of "praying" so I do not misread them. Perhaps I have, if so, forgive me.

[BeardofPants]

Oh Wayfarer...

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Originally posted by BeardofPants
Men and women want to believe that they are higher, and better, and more intelligent than any other species. (How egocentric!). Religion feeds that belief, that humans are special, that humans are unique. Evolution suggests that humans are nothing more than an intelligent animal. Religion is threatened by that idea. Therein lies the problem.

Originally posted by Wayfarer
That may be what humans want to believe, but it's not what christainity teaches. I could make the opposite case and say that some want humans to be considerd 'the pinnacle of evolution' while christianity teaches that we're simply one of a multitude of created things.

Does Genesis not say: "...Let us make man in our image and likeness to rule the fish in the sea, the birds of heaven, the cattle, all..." etc etc.

[Wayfarer]

Oy...

This thread has a habit of getting away from me.

BoP. Would It be ok with you if I take some time and straighten out my responses?

That is, can we try and keep this thread from growing exponentially for a while?

[Andúril]

I believe in God because I talk to him and he talks to me and helps me through life.

These are the statements that interest me.

You say that you believe in God because you talk to him. Isn't that circular reasoning? Why would you talk to someone if you didn't believe in him? It seems that you have already assumed that God exists, so talking to him and receiving answers is not necessary, is it?

Perhaps you could explain just exactly how he talks back to you. You need to show that there is absolutely no way that you could have mistaken these "mutual" conversations for something else.

Same with the help issue. How do you know you are being helped by a concious being? Could you show a few instances where you are helped by God, and that you can not attribute this help to anything else?

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Anduril
These are the statements that interest me.

You say that you believe in God because you talk to him. Isn't that circular reasoning? Why would you talk to someone if you didn't believe in him? It seems that you have already assumed that God exists, so talking to him and receiving answers is not necessary, is it?

Perhaps you could exlain just exactly how he talks back to you. You need to show that there is absolutely no way that you could have mistaken these "mutual" conversation for something else.

Same with the help issue. How do you know you are being helped by a concious being? Could you show a few instances where you are helped by God, and that you can not attribute this help to anything else?

An interesting book to read is "Valis" By Philip K. Dick. It's about a guy who starts getting messages from some kind of higher being, and how he deals with it. Very good, very interesting. Based loosely on the aforementioned author's mental breakdown.

[Andúril]

Similarily, perhaps you could explain why perceived experiences with the biblical god are any more valid than perceived experiences with gods of other religions, aliens, dead relatives, imaginary friends...

[Rána Eressëa]

Originally posted by Anduril
Similarily, perhaps you could explain why perceived experiences with the biblical god are any more valid than perceived experiences with gods of other religions, aliens, dead relatives, imaginary friends...

*gasps with fright* Teddy and Frodo #3 are REAL, I tell you! REAL!

[Rána Eressëa]

*takes out a journal with "The Bible" written on the front, then opens it to the first page and reads outloud . . . *

Before the beginning there was nothing but blackness, so I said, "Let there be light!" yet nothing happened. Greatly upset, I turned on the lamp by myself. Happy, I then said, "Let there be life!" and suddenly Entmoot appeared with many, many members. Pleased with myself, I declared the one with the most posts would be the Entmootly reincarnation of me and would spread the good word before being crucified. Then, looking at the member with most posts, I declared, "Oh, now they're all going to Hell."

[Arathorn]

Are you sure that's not Ben's journal you're holding, RE?

[Rána Eressëa]

*looks on the inside cover of the journal to see a black felt tip marker scribbled name: Ben Milder*

Umm . . . heh heh heh . . .

[Earniel]

ROFLOL!! whahahahah, good one! Still shaking with laughter....hehehe....oh god, now my tummy hurts....

[afro-elf]

i think I'm gonna be leaving these threads

its taking me away for things i need to attend to

the latter part of my signature is my final thought on the subject

[Rána Eressëa]

It seems you agree with the quote from "Dogma" I proposed earlier in the thread, afro-elf. I'll be honest, that I have been opened to many new ideas thanks to Starr Polish and Nibs. It's much easier to understand someone's point of view when you have a one-on-one talk with them, rather than debating in a thread.

[afro-elf]

jeresy devil suggested that i post the quote

again incase I change it so it won't be lost

Rogue Elf i don't recall it earlier in the thread what did you say exactly about the dogma quote?

I read the script on line 'cos they'd never show it here

I did eventually see the video but don't recall the quote clearly

was it chris rock who said it?

A) Having belief isn’t good?
B) I think it is better to have ideas.


You can change an idea. A belief is trickier.
Life should be malleable and progressive; working from idea to ideas permit this.


Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can’t generate.
Life becomes stagnant.



Debate that is the only way people reaffirm that they are alive-by debating. In all its forms.


We spend our whole lives debating: we fight about who is right who is wrong, we fight ourselves, we fight each other, we death, we fight over beliefs.



People say life is a struggle. It is no. It is about living….belief is a dangerous thing. People die for it and people kill for it

[Rána Eressëa]

Yes, Chris Rock said it. Here is the quote from the movie:

"Mankind got it all wrong by taking a good idea, and building a belief structure on it."

"You're saying having beliefs is a bad thing?" (Bethany)

"I just think it's better to have ideas. I mean, you can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier: people die for it. People kill for it."

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Emplynx
I would laugh if you went around saying Darwin Loves You. You should make a bumper sticker, I would like to evolve, but I am afraid that Lord Kelvin would roll over in his grave if I broke is law.

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Well, actually, you're already breaking it, according to your beliefs, because God used the 2nd law of thermodynamics to create Everything. And the second law refers only to energy being needed to create change in a closed sytstem, which doesn't say anything about evolution. (And there is an interesting story about molecules in space spontaneously changing, without outside energy acting upon them.)

Anyway, you are applying the second law of thermodynamics in a completely weird manner. An atom actually has more entropy than when a few of them band together to make a molecule (ie H20 has less entropy than H and O, and by your reasoning, H and O couldn't exist, to create water). That being, that the sum of working parts has less entropy than the individual atom. And this substantiates biological evolution I'm afraid.

Also, you're thinking of Information entropy developed by Claude Shannon, which measures the complexity of entropy in an organism. (Another interesting story that, let me tell you sometime), the second law of thermodynamics measures the dispersal of energy in an organism.

[jerseydevil]

Well today was my grandmother's wake. During the time the priest was chanting the blessing for the casket and everything - I was thinking. Although I don't believe in heaven and hell and all that, I hope that since my grandmother believed so much - I hope there is.

I thought about how religious she was and how much she believed that someday she would see her sisters and parents and everything. I hope for her that her beliefs are right - or at least something similar.

One of her long time friends was at the wake and she made a comment that my grandmother was up in heaven waiting for her so they could play cards again like they did when they were younger.

Of course it's not the first time I thought about this. I for one have always hoped that I would someday be able to see my mother again.

Tomorrow is my grandmother's funeral - mass and everything. Even though I don't necessarily believe in god or heaven and hell - I hope that for her that there is. I hope for my mother there is. I'm just not really counting on the fact that I'll see either one again.

I hope that my father gets to see my mother again - he's been so lonely and miserable since her death. Right now he's only half a person - and I can see the pain in his eyes and lack of desire to live. It's hard to see my father like that.

Okay - even though I don't believe - it would be nice if it was true.

Do any other people that are atheists feel this way?

[BeardofPants]

JD I know how you feel. While I haven't had someone immediate to me die (my grandma is the closest), I have often wondered how I would deal with my grief. It is unfortunate that we have taken the hard road, and turned aside faith, because in doing so, we have lost that closure that so many religious people seem to have. However, I do feel that we return to the earth to play a greater role (fertilising the grass, in that cycle of life), so that the life that comes after us may benefit. I am grieving for you, and with you, because I know how hard it is to lose someone, and have people giving you platitudes that you don't believe in. Just know, that her pain and suffering are over, and although you may not believe in heaven, she is in a happier place - one of oblivion to pain, and suffering. I hope you feel better soon, JD.

[jerseydevil]

Thanks BOP. Actually after having my mother die unexpectedly at 44 - my grandmother's death really doesn't bother me for serveral reasons. For one - I went through the greatest grief I could - and that was losing my mother to a catasrophic heart attack when she was only 44 years old the week before Thanksgiving (several years ago). The other is the fact that my grandmother died for me when she got alzheimers. She's been "dead" for years - and it got so bad last year that she couldn't even remember how to talk.

I had to ask a friend yesterday if it was okay not to feel sadness that my grandmother died. I feel sadness for my father. It's sort of odd - I experienced the pain of losing a mother before he did. Also at least my grandmother lived to almost twice the age my mother lived. My grandmother I guess was 82 - my mother only 44.

I hadn't seen my grandother in a long time because she was in a nursing home by my uncle in North Carolina. I walked into the wake today and I didn't even recognize her. I almost said out loud -"they sent us into the wrong room." Good thing I didn't. She looks nothing like she did though, I think that's hard right now.

This is going to sound terrible - but in a way I'm glad my grandmother is dead. She had severe alzheimers and basically wasn't alive. She wasn't in a coma - but still couldn't do anything. She had no sense of what was going on around her. My cousin said she visited her a couple of months ago or something. Our grandmother smiled at her for the first time in years - but still didn't know her name or who she was or anything.

There are probably only two people in this world that could be as devastating as the lose of my mother - and that's the death of my father or my sister.

I would like there to be some heaven or something like that where I can go back and see all the people that have died. I just don't think it will happen.

You know - when anything goes wrong or for that matter right - people always tell me - "don't worry your mother is looking down on you. She knows and is there for you."

The times that I miss my mother the most it seems - is when something good happens. I would like so much to be able to tell her about my new contract - or a trip I took or something.

It's sort of odd - my own death I can care less about. Sometimes I think the sooner the better - I just don't want anything painful. I just think - you just die and that's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Then when someone close dies - I want there to so much more. I want to see my mother again, my grandparents, when I have friends die - I want to see them again and hang out and joke around. I just don't believe that will be the case.