11-23-2004, 02:07 AM | #601 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
That's why I made that important note that the mud the children started out in had dangerous bacteria in it and was harmful to them.
There IS such a thing as good, healthy mud! NOW - what to do, what to do? Do I continue on with my chronological plan, or do I comment on comments on earlier posts, which technically came after the other posts, but are comments on the earlier posts, so are they considered earlier or later ... *babbles off into the distance*
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-23-2004, 02:12 AM | #602 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
The two questions
I love how you ask such good questions, Elemmire .
Quote:
Quote:
The oldest Old Testament writings were those written by Moses, the Pentateuch. The Pentateuch is a single book that contained the five earliest books of the Bible. Literary evidence and archaeological research have consistently undercut most of the arguments against Mosaic authorship. I'm afraid I can't get into a great deal of details as to all the evidence, though. One of the difficulties of not being well enough informed . Quote:
I'm sorry I can't give you a better answer here. If you specify the arguments and evidence supporting the chance that Constantine manipulated which books were put in the Bible, I'll research it and bring you back an answer.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
|||
11-23-2004, 02:17 AM | #603 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
OK, I think at least I'll finish up Ñólendil's one post - there's 2 paragraphs left - then I'll just kinda go with the flow.
Quote:
Let me answer the question by turning it around - can YOU come up with a solution? Here's the assumptions : God is loving, God is just (and I'm crossing my fingers that everyone knows that word! Sometimes when I say "God is just", I get people asking "He's just what? It's such a good word, I hate to lose it!) - ok, starting over - God is loving, God is just, God gives people free will (and no, Lief, I will NOT discuss free will with you until you do your homework assignment, you naughty boy!) - ok, starting over - God is loving, God is just, God gives people free will, salvation is freely available to all and no one can say they didn't have enough information to choose rightly. SO - what is to be done if someone really, truly does NOT want to acknowledge their sin and their need for God's redemption and the rightful authority of God over them? What can be done? Shall one unrepentant person, who wants to hang on to their sin, be given the right to hold the rest of the entire universe hostage? What other solution IS there? What other solution can there possibly BE?
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-23-2004 at 02:21 AM. |
|
11-23-2004, 02:19 AM | #604 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Faith and personal experience
Quote:
Take the Apostle Paul, for example. He had a light fall down on him from heaven, heard words, saw Jesus Christ resurrected. He performed miracles and had his faith verified daily. Yet he lived by faith. So that's the kind of faith I'm talking about. Faith that is backed up powerfully by personal experience and all manner of evidence. Quote:
Quote:
My mind does turn upon hearing these words to another rather neat possibility, though. Though you miss a marvelous experience of having an earthly father, you don't miss out on the opportunity of having a father. God is a father also, and he can be your father. You have definitely had a terrible experience of missing out on the wonderful experience of having a loving earthly father. Fathers are meant to interact with their children, love them and be an active part of their lives. God the Father is like that. You know how I referred to the Apostle Paul's experience of encountering God. Most people's experiences of encountering God for the first time aren't nearly that dramatic. However, they certainly are usually major turning points in their lives. Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
||||
11-23-2004, 02:35 AM | #605 | |||
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Himring
Posts: 1,582
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Why is the Bible the one book to go by? hm...1:35am, this is getting rather circuitous... good night. ...who am I kidding... another half an hour it is
__________________
~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman Last edited by Elemmírë : 11-23-2004 at 02:36 AM. |
|||
11-23-2004, 02:47 AM | #606 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Now I love Milton's Paradise Lost - as stunningly beautiful as The Lay of Leithian and The Lay of the Children of Hurin, IMO. So here's some passages that show Satan's heart, and that should be taken into account (IMO) when analyzing what he says: Quote:
And Satan's sin was wanting to be God - which is impossible. Shall a being be allowed to believe a lie? Or should the lie be exposed? Shall a rebellious being be allowed to continually impose pain on others, or shall there be an end to pain? Which is the just solution? The Bible states that God desires that ALL PEOPLE would come to Him - therefore, if there is ANY chance that a person WOULD do this, and God is all-knowing, then He would give them more chances! However, I think things finally get to a point where it is no more use giving someone a chance - they have fully and finally made up their minds - and God, in His wisdom, can see this. And that is the point where Hell is the only answer to what they have chosen. God, in His wisdom and love, has decided that THIS is the right and just and loving answer : "So Heav'nly love shall outdo hellish hate."
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-23-2004 at 02:51 AM. |
||
11-23-2004, 03:05 AM | #607 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Now what you're talking about is a kind of restitution, which is different. It's a right response to having sinned; it's the outward sign of an acknowledgement of a wrong done and a desire to heal where you have hurt. A right restitution would be to ask forgiveness of the person you lied to and do whatever you can to take away the bad effects of your lie on their lives. But you're right - it doesn't take away the fact that you lied, and that there is a penalty, and rightly so, for doing this. Quote:
out of time again I'll try to finish your post tomorrow. Good night!
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
||||
11-23-2004, 03:05 AM | #608 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
I'm going to ignore those things you said describing what you and R*an were talking about, because my mind is rather fuzzy. The comments about liberals I'm also going to pass over for the moment, though for less good a reason . My response wouldn't be a very strong or effective one. Perhaps my mind again is just fuzzy, or perhaps you really have a good point, or perhaps I'm still a little too uneducated. Hmm. Back to the points I will respond to, though .
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
||||
11-23-2004, 03:33 AM | #609 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Archaeology has proven extremely instrumental in showing the accuracy of large parts of the Bible which beforehand were viewed as inaccurate. People pointed to different facts of history to show that the Bible was wrong in its accounts, and archaeology has consistently supported Biblical findings. New discoveries are still being made frequently which validate the Bible. The New Testament in particular has been backed up powerfully by archaeology, though the Old Testament also has had remarkable support. 2) Corroborative sources The Assyrian writings back up some Old Testament accounts, and various other ancient historical tablets or writings back up the Old Testament. The New Testament accounts are powerfully backed up by ancient historians. Tacitus, Josephus, Pliny the Younger and others wrote of the events of the New Testament times. From corroborative nonChristian accounts that are broadly accepted by scholars, it can be shown that Jesus was believed to have performed miracles in his time, that large crowds followed him, that he was crucified, that his followers believed he was resurrected, and that the church spread far extremely rapidly with complete conviction in its followers. All this is shown simply from corroborative accounts from nonChristians. Even Jesus' enemies the Pharisees had some writings from that time period in which they accused Jesus of being involved in black magic. Clearly even his enemies could not deny his miraculous power. Corroborative historical sources are a strong evidence for the Old and New Testaments. 3) Mathematics The Old Testament prophecies are an extremely powerful evidence for Christianity being the correct religion. There were many Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament, and they were all fulfilled in Jesus. Even many writings from the Old Testament that were not taken as prophetic at Jesus' time were fulfilled in Jesus. However, we need look no further then those prophecies that everyone knew and believed were describing the Messiah. They prophecied the time of birth of the Messiah, the manner of his birth, his life and ministry, his performing miracles, the manner of his death, his resurrection from the dead. Mathmeticians have calculated that the odds of anyone fulfilling as many prophecies as Jesus did were virtually infinite against him. Possibilities such as purposeful fulfillment of prophecies, and other theories have been examined and discarded for many good reasons which I can get into. 4) Eyewitnesses The people who witnessed Jesus doing these things are actually another extremely compelling evidence in favor of the Bible. Almost all of Jesus' immediate disciples gave up their lives for their beliefs. Many people of other religions have done the same, yet these people claimed to have actually seen Jesus resurrected. They claimed to have eaten with him, to have walked and talked with him. In short, they knew beyond the shadow of a doubt whether they were telling the truth or not. If they lied, they knew that they lied and were willing to die for the lie! The eyewitnesses held to an incredibly demanding code of moral behavior (the perfect life Jesus called them to), which further supports their testimony. The eyewitnesses must have had an extreme motivation to preach and carry out their ministry, the motivation inspired by zeal and extreme belief. If their accounts are not believed, then they had no incentive to carry out this ministry, for their ministry flew in the face of Jewish culture and religion and put them against all manner of authorities, causing them to be despised, hated, abused, persecuted and finally killed. Hmm . . . there probably are other lines of evidence I'm missing out on. I think I've brought up most of the main ones. The most important evidence of all comes simply from coming into a personal relationship with Christ, however. When Christ speaks to me, it is a marvelous experience. I have spent much time rejoicing after God speaks to me, rejoicing out of simple delight at having such an interactive God as a friend.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-23-2004 at 02:28 PM. |
|
11-23-2004, 07:28 AM | #610 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Those are very compelling arguments for why the Bible is (short version) true. But just to point out - it doesn't undermine the validity of the holy scriptures or books of other religions.
About Mathematics, how does one find the predictions in the Bible? I assume you would at least have to be an accomplished Biblical scholar. What do you think about people saying 9/11 (or some modern disaster) was predicted in the Bible? That sort of thing doesn't sit well with me. I was wondering how you, Rian, and anyone who cares to comment, feels about Biblical predictions (correctly discovered or otherwise).
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
||
11-23-2004, 03:21 PM | #611 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
We don't simply understand now after the fact what things were prophetic and which weren't. Many scriptures were taken at the time of Jesus as prophetic of the Messiah, and he fulfilled those. That's not counting the later ones. Quote:
I don't know anything about the arguments for 9/11 being predicted in scripture. My first reaction is doubt. I won't dismiss anything out of hand without seeing what there is in favor of it, though. Revelation Quote:
The predictions of the Bible had many purposes. They blessed the people who read them and believed them in their own times, but they most particularly blessed the people who experienced them at their fulfillment and afterward. My reaction to someone talking about the second coming of Christ and the fulfillment of the scriptures is immediately one of relative skepticism, because there have been endless numbers of false leads. I do see, though, that the prophecies of Revelation are steadily, steadily becoming more and more possible to come to pass in modern society. In fact, many of them are even likely now in modern society, whereas in the past, when they were written, they were clearly impossible unless the Lord performed astounding miracles. So actually, the predictions of Revelation, even if they are not already fulfilled, I probably should include as another compelling evidence for the accuracy of Christianity. A rather frightening evidence, but compelling, all the same.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-23-2004 at 03:25 PM. |
||||
11-23-2004, 04:02 PM | #612 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,412
|
accuracy schmaccuracy!
Herod died in 4 AD, Quirinius was appointed governor of Syria in 6 AD, so how could Jesus be born both while Herod was alive (Matt 2:1) and Quirinius was governor of Syria (Luke 2:2)? Does it matter? Isn't it far more important that we LOVE GOD, and LOVE ONE ANOTHER? Besides, I heard that Matthew and Luke copied sections of Mark. And then there's all the books that were discarded by the early church fathers. |
11-23-2004, 04:13 PM | #613 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
the fact is, it is not "obvious" that christainity is correct... it is not even "obvious" how exactly christianity is supposed to be observed... or a whole lot more people would be following it... and following the same "flavor" of christianity which either says that the christian god has not done a very good job spreading his word accurately, or the word in fact is just one of many human interpretations of a possible reality and lets not forget the peoples throughout history who, due to geography were never exposed to christianity (i.e. native americans)... what did the christian god do for them? btw, speaking of "possible realities", you never addressed my post #588 Quote:
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
||
11-23-2004, 04:39 PM | #614 | |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
Quote:
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
|
11-23-2004, 04:40 PM | #615 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Other scholars have pointed out that Luke's text can actually be translated, "This census took place before Quirinius was governing Syria," and that too would easily resolve the problem. Quote:
The books that were discarded by the early church fathers were discarded for very good reasons. They had fallacies of various kinds, some of them theological. There was a very careful process that was used before a book was accepted as Biblical. If this were not true, the Bible would have been found invalid as a source book centuries ago. Honestly, do you really think that the church fathers should have accepted every book that was proposed to them as infallible scripture?
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
||||
11-23-2004, 04:50 PM | #616 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
The biggest single evidence is the dark age of the Egyptian Third Intermediate Period. There is a gap of around 560 years where there is virtually nothing from archaeology or any documentation in Egypt's timeline. There was no advancement, virtually no writing whatsoever. There is no indication as to why the sudden disappearance of all culture or anything worth recording occurred. The Egyptian culture just stops, and then centuries later, starts up again essentially where it left off. Other countries had their timelines working from the Egyptian timeline. Among them also, there is a major dark age in which virtually nothing is discovered. There's no archaeology dated to the time period and no writings- or very, very, very, very little of both. I could get into the issues more deeply, explaining how and why the error occurred, and all the evidence for how this error occurred, but not without getting into the theories my Dad has created. The only reason I know about this subject is because of all his research. I'm waiting for him to publish, so I'll just have to let your point stand without extreme objection. I will remark that pre-Solomon, there is between very little and zero backing for Old Testament records. This objection to the scripture does fall away though, when the timeline is fixed. The dates and all the events described in the Old Testament fit when the timeline gap is closed.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
|
11-23-2004, 05:10 PM | #617 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
Lief, in intermediate periods were times of historical, political, social upheaval. That's why they're intermediate periods. ::shrug:: The so-called lack of evidence from these upheavals is cos of the resultant restructuring of the geographical/economical/cultural barriers. I'm not too familair with the third intermediate period, as my specialty was the eighteenth dynastic period, with an interest in middle kingdom/second intermediate period, but I do know that the capital of Egypt tended to shift around during these periods, and massive destruction being undertaken by invading forces. There is no "sudden disappearance".
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
11-23-2004, 05:50 PM | #618 | |
Marshal of the Eastmark
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,412
|
Quote:
But before any others quote me, let me repeat that I'm not a Christian. I'm just another person who loves to read all the great teachers. |
|
11-23-2004, 06:19 PM | #619 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
The Dark Age of the Mediterranean
Quote:
Recent studies of David Francis, a specialist in Persian-Greek relations, and Michael Vickers, Assistant Keeper of Antiquities at the Ashmolean Museum, Oxford, provide an example of how modern techniques of dating have actually shown that the Dark Age was longer them people previously had thought. They challenged virtually all the major criteria for dating Egyptian Art up to the 5th century BC! They argued consistently for later dates rather then earlier ones. According to Vicker, "The first incontrovertible "fixed point" in the Greek [archaeological] chronology is the Parthenon." The chronologies of other nations were tied to the Egyptian chronology, hence they too experienced a major dark age at exactly the same period. Here is a list which is described in greater detail in Peter James book, The Centuries of Darkness. This is a quote from my father's unpublished book, which I do not intend to quote very often . Quote:
Quote:
So the problem definitely exists, and not only in Egypt- throughout nearly all the civilization surrounding the Mediterranean. The difficulty goes back to chronology. If the chronology is shifted to remove the Dark Age, architecture, writing, art, and all forms of culture slide neatly together to show a continuing progression, rather then a black hole. Also, if the chronology is shifted to remove the Dark Age, immediately Biblical events prior to Solomon are found to be amazingly accurate, and other accounts from the other nations around the Mediterranean are found to make sense in a way that before they never seemed to. Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
||||
11-23-2004, 06:30 PM | #620 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
One ought to have some reason to believe what one does! Christians do. :P It sounded to me like you were making a general insult to Christians in general, saying "they don't know about history or evidence or anything." That's why I was insulted. Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
|||