02-09-2009, 04:27 PM | #601 | |
Elf Lord
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However, after the work in my lifetime to bring the Catholic Church into a place where the historical wrongs done the Jews are acknowledged and the friendly relationship between Catholicism and other faiths strengthened, to have this occur is a change in policy. Of course, to non-Catholics, the problem is that the Pope is a Nazi.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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02-09-2009, 05:22 PM | #602 | |
Deus Ex Machina
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
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02-10-2009, 01:55 AM | #603 | |||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Anti-Semitism is wrong, and is a terrible thing. But it is not a ground for schism. I'm not sure you understand what schism is to the Church. The disunity and infighting of Christians is the biggest scandal in the history of the Church, and the greatest wound to the Church. It is a horrible, horrible thing. We can only continue in the firm hope that eventually, the Church will be united once again. The Church perpetually clings to the prayer of Christ, "That they might be one, as You and I are one". Ecclesial unity is essential to the Catholic mind. You can criticize this mindset, you can criticize the importance given to union with Rome in favour of a vague, indefinite "invisible unity". But given that the Church holds this, it is absolutely imperative for her to work for the unity of Christians. To fail to do so would be to her condemnation, and a lapse of her duty. The Church is not a social gathering, she is not a political entity, she is an ark, for the salvation of sick souls. To neglect those souls is the greatest crime. And recall, this is not a matter that touches solely upon bishop Williamson. This is the whole Society of St. Pius X. That means four bishops, hundreds of priests, and hundreds of thousands of laity. Should they all be barred from the Church? Even though the Superior General has rejected the statements of Williamson? Even though the German Superior has done so in the strongest terms? Even though he has been forbidden from public statement on the matter? Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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02-10-2009, 09:58 AM | #604 | |
Elf Lord
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When we look at these priorities, the bias of the leader is easy to question. When we look at his background...it's not difficult to find. The Assumption of Mary. There's infailability for ya.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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02-10-2009, 11:04 AM | #605 |
Elf Lord
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Lithely and blithely stolen from sf-fandom.com thread for perusal here because it clarifies some very basic issues that seem to have gotten highly confused. Kudos to Shadowfax for his elucidations! See http://www.sf-fandom.com/vbulletin/s...ad.php?t=30549 for the entire thread and discussion there.
"Bishop Williamson is not being re-instated. To be re-instated he would have to be offered a job as a proper bishop with a diocese and the associated staff and powers and responsibilities etc. The pope is most definitely not offering him this. All that he is getting is a suspension of an excommunication. An excommunication is applied to a person by the pope as a severe form of punishment and it bars that person from receiving the sacrement of Holy Communion. All the pope is saying when he suspends this excommunication is that if Williamson turns up in a Catholic Church he may receive communion. The Catholic Church has numerous apostate and dissident and maverick priests and bishops (including people such as Hans Kung). These have not been excommunicated for their views but merely suspended from their functions. This is a lesser form of punishment. By offering to suspend Willamson's excommunication, he is transitioning towards this lesser form. From there he can, just as Hans Kung can, make steps towards a full rehabilitation by taking back his words and demonstarting that he means it. Now, Williamson was not excommunicated for denying the Holocaust. He was excommunicated for allowing Lefebvre to make him a bishop in express violation of the Pope's wishes back in the 1980s. By lifting that excommunication, the Pope is showing him that he is prepared to stretch out his hand in forgiveness over that particular violation. If the public or the press or Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany, or Jewish representatives have a problem with their being forgiveness over that particular and specific violation of Church law, let them come forwards and argue why there should be no forgiveness. They don't have those arguments. Now Williamson has independently of that also done something else to annoy people. He has denied the Holocaust. Maybe he should be excommunicated for that. I'm no expert in Church law so can't judge whether that crime merits such a punishment. But supposing it does, then that is a second excommunication we would be talking about. You can't posteriorly change the reason for an excommunication that has been issued over a completely different matter. This would be comparable to you being issued a parking fine by the police, and when you proved that you were innocent, the police said pay up anyway because you were also speeding. Two separate violations require two separate punishments and you cannot roll one into the other for reasons of expedience. So when people are shocked that the Pope is willing to forgive Williamson for obeying Lefebrvre back in the 1980s, what they really are saying is that he doesn't deserve to have his excommunication lifted becsuse he deserves another excommunication because he has denied the Holocaust. But so have many other people denied the Holocaust and they haven't been excommunicated. Okay, this is no reason not to start now and why not start of with Williamson? I would support such a move if it were to include all Holocaust deniers rather than just one or two. But that's not what the press or any of these folks are arguing for. They are barking up the wrong tree. There is no connection whatsover between Willimason's excommunication and his Holocaust denial." ***comment #8 in the thread*** and "Well, Bishop Williamson has now been removed from his teaching job. I think that in deciding to do that, the RCC is making it quite clear that such opinions as his are not welcome. The present pope has possibly done more than any other pope in history to build bridges to other religions and especially Judaism and to accuse him of complicity in Holocaust-denial is just not tenable. I believe there was a genuine mistake as his advisors failed to do a proper background check on Williamson. I would agree that maybe the Pope ought to be asking his advisors tough questions on why they didn't spot this, seeing there is so much material readily available on Google and YouTube. But to wish to see malice behind this is really not fair." ***comment #16 in the thread***
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
02-10-2009, 11:36 AM | #606 |
Elf Lord
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Inked, that makes perfect sense to me. Thanks for the posting.
But what does it have to do with schism? *scratches head* Make your peace with the Church, you're no longer excommunicate. That's an individual matter.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
02-10-2009, 03:33 PM | #607 | |||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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The consecration of these four instigated a schism between the Society and Rome, with the four excommunicate bishops as the heads of the Society. Rome and the Society have been drifting towards an end of that schism for the past several years. Letters have been exchanged, conditions have been proposed, etc. It seems that they have come to a final agreement, or have come close to a final agreement. The first official step towards unity would logically be to lift the excommunication on the leaders of the Society, and this has been done, as a step towards the healing of the schism. Does that make sense?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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02-10-2009, 04:44 PM | #608 |
Elf Lord
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Yes, thank you.
making bishops without permission=BAD hating Jews without cause<BAD *nods*
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
02-10-2009, 09:06 PM | #609 |
Elf Lord
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a little simplistic, SACA
See here: http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/02/10/europe/pope.php AND here: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4015374,00.html
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 02-10-2009 at 09:10 PM. Reason: addendum |
02-10-2009, 09:20 PM | #610 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Now, sis, you know very well that it cannot be reduced to such simplistic terms. Canon law mandates excommunication for acts of schism, among which is listed the consecration of bishops without the approval of the Holy See. Denial of the Holocaust is simply something that wouldn't enter into sphere of canon law, although there might well be something about causing grave scandal or somesuch, which could be brought to bear on Williamson.
Why do you insist on painting it in the worst possible terms? You're an intelligent woman, you know these broad strokes you are using are unfair. So why do it?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
02-10-2009, 09:43 PM | #611 |
Elf Lord
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Sorry, Gwai.
My respect for the people here interferes with my more natural tendency to start up with anyone for any or no reason. *sigh* But if no one ever takes an opposing position, there are 11 posts here a day, and they all center on virtual snacks! Just trying to keep the ball in play. *tears*
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
10-18-2010, 06:04 AM | #612 | |
Elf Lord
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Not wishing to keep cluttering up the multi-culti thread...
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I actually come across this attitude fairly often...but then that's because I teach a lot of elementary school students. " You aren't gonna let a girl boss you around, are you?! Oooh, you got girl fleas! Girl-cooties! Girl-cooties!" Most people get over it by the age of 12. Here's a suggestion for some new headgear for the Bishop to signify his new position http://calvinandhobbes.me/grosshat.php
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 10-18-2010 at 06:07 AM. |
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11-22-2010, 06:15 AM | #613 |
Elf Lord
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Pope Endorses Condom Use
....for gay male prostitutes. Presumably the same logic would apply to a female prostitute who's sterile or having sex with a sterile john. Actually, with that reasoning, shouldn't it cover any sexual relationship where one of the partners is infertile? That still leaves the question of the young African woman whose husband has contracted AIDS -either no to sex for the rest of their lives ( no divorce, of course) or every encounter is a game of Russian roulette not only with her life but also any child that may be being concieved. Still, one small step toward sanity....
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
11-22-2010, 11:10 AM | #614 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Really, what the pope said is a no-brainer, given the reasoning for Vatican positions; I mean, contraception is a non-issue in sex between two people of the same sex, and when one of the partners is infertile, as you note, so . . . duh.
The case you mention, of a married couple where one of them has AIDS, is a matter of debate among RC moralists. Myself, I fall in the camp that says condom use is moral in those circumstances.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
11-23-2010, 09:21 PM | #615 | |
Elf Lord
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Looks like the Pope has come down on that side
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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11-23-2010, 11:51 PM | #616 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Someone's getting their news from NPR.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
11-25-2010, 09:06 PM | #617 |
Elf Lord
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Oooops, forgot the link- it comes from AP by way of Talking Points Memo
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/new..._women_too.php Of course I only listen to the CBC - anyway, the head of Fox news tells me NPR is run by Nazis.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
11-26-2010, 02:15 AM | #618 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Ah, I'd just read the NPR article, which was exactly the same as what you posted. I made the foolish assumption that they were the one's who came up with it; silly goose that I am!
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
05-12-2012, 01:58 AM | #619 |
Elf Lord
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First they came for the nuns, and I did not speak out, because I was not a nun.
Then, they came for the Girl Scouts.... http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture...tholic-bishops What next? 'The US Conference of Catholic Bishops recently issued a condemnation of puppies, kittens and other small furry animals. "Sure, they have those cute little tails and wiggly noses", Cardinal Dolan said yesterday, " But when was the last time you heard a bunny rabbit criticizing gay marriage, hmmm?" '
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 05-12-2012 at 02:01 AM. |
05-14-2012, 01:36 PM | #620 |
Quasi Evil
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So the Girl Scouts, a secular organization, is catching hell for not following Catholic doctrine but the Boy Scouts are patted on the back for openly discriminating against gays? I guess that war on women has been extended to 8 year olds selling cookies then? Guess they figured it was just a slippery slope to the "Safe Sex Badge" so they had to do something. Although I do find it amusing whenever I hear the Catholic Church spearheading this kind of thing and acting indignant about the possibility of "problematic relationships" of ANY kind when it comes to children...
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