How to teach evolution & Evidence for Creationism

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Acran Mern

Just caught the middle of that paragraph there . You are right in that _natural selection_ does occur. But natural selection only removes genetic material from the pool. It cannot add it.

it actually doesn't remove or add... it mutates, or changes, existing material

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Acran Mern

Just caught the middle of that paragraph there . You are right in that _natural selection_ does occur. But natural selection only removes genetic material from the pool. It cannot add it.

it actually doesn't remove or add... it mutates, or changes, existing material

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Has ANYONE read my link with the proposed changes to see the actual FACTS of what they are proposing to change/add/delete?

And I repeat - they are NOT - repeat again - NOT - proposing that creationism, ID, or any other concept be taught.

i read it... and i think the author needs to go back to grade school to remember what it's like

the way the topic is presented is much less complex... and from what i remember, the first few weeks of science class is all about the scientific method, what theories really are, and how personal bias always comes into studies... that is why theories are published and debated

i've seen people on the 'net say evolution is a fact, plain and simple... i've never heard anything close from a science teacher... just that it's the most-widely accepted theory of our time (which it is)

i'm sure there are public school science teachers that brush aside evolution due to personal bais... and i'm sure there are others that might strongly favor creationism and let that seep into their lessons... but most already present evolution as suggested in the letter... and they did twenty years ago!

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Has ANYONE read my link with the proposed changes to see the actual FACTS of what they are proposing to change/add/delete?

And I repeat - they are NOT - repeat again - NOT - proposing that creationism, ID, or any other concept be taught.

i read it... and i think the author needs to go back to grade school to remember what it's like

the way the topic is presented is much less complex... and from what i remember, the first few weeks of science class is all about the scientific method, what theories really are, and how personal bias always comes into studies... that is why theories are published and debated

i've seen people on the 'net say evolution is a fact, plain and simple... i've never heard anything close from a science teacher... just that it's the most-widely accepted theory of our time (which it is)

i'm sure there are public school science teachers that brush aside evolution due to personal bais... and i'm sure there are others that might strongly favor creationism and let that seep into their lessons... but most already present evolution as suggested in the letter... and they did twenty years ago!

BTW, natural selection has nothing to do with mutation. Those whose genetic material makes it too difficult to survive die off and the rest survive. That is why a disease seems to gain immunity to a drug. The only viruses/bacteria left are the ones that have that immunity in their genetic makeup. The others die out. Nothing has changed, a variety has simply died out, or become extremely rare.

BTW, natural selection has nothing to do with mutation. Those whose genetic material makes it too difficult to survive die off and the rest survive. That is why a disease seems to gain immunity to a drug. The only viruses/bacteria left are the ones that have that immunity in their genetic makeup. The others die out. Nothing has changed, a variety has simply died out, or become extremely rare.

BJ, while I was in college, I had many professors attempt to present evolution as fact. When I questioned them on it, I became a target for the whole class. Those people I was dealing with had accepted evolution as fact. While the finer points of the theory may be up for debate in most people's minds, the idea that the whole thing might be wrong is completely foreign to most people.

BJ, while I was in college, I had many professors attempt to present evolution as fact. When I questioned them on it, I became a target for the whole class. Those people I was dealing with had accepted evolution as fact. While the finer points of the theory may be up for debate in most people's minds, the idea that the whole thing might be wrong is completely foreign to most people.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Acran Mern

BTW, natural selection has nothing to do with mutation. Those whose genetic material makes it too difficult to survive die off and the rest survive. That is why a disease seems to gain immunity to a drug. The only viruses/bacteria left are the ones that have that immunity in their genetic makeup. The others die out. Nothing has changed, a variety has simply died out, or become extremely rare.

by that i mean mutation that occurs as new offspring develop... errors in the way dna replicates itself can lead to a final organism that is different in a small, or great, way... it's not really a matter of addition or subtraction (though in some cases it is the loss of part of the genes)... just a different combination of existing genes

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Acran Mern

BTW, natural selection has nothing to do with mutation. Those whose genetic material makes it too difficult to survive die off and the rest survive. That is why a disease seems to gain immunity to a drug. The only viruses/bacteria left are the ones that have that immunity in their genetic makeup. The others die out. Nothing has changed, a variety has simply died out, or become extremely rare.

by that i mean mutation that occurs as new offspring develop... errors in the way dna replicates itself can lead to a final organism that is different in a small, or great, way... it's not really a matter of addition or subtraction (though in some cases it is the loss of part of the genes)... just a different combination of existing genes

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Acran Mern

BJ, while I was in college, I had many professors attempt to present evolution as fact. When I questioned them on it, I became a target for the whole class. Those people I was dealing with had accepted evolution as fact. While the finer points of the theory may be up for debate in most people's minds, the idea that the whole thing might be wrong is completely foreign to most people.

i don't doubt your experience... but one should not project that onto the entire population (as the writer RÃ*an linked also does)... there are many good scientists and good teachers, they are just not as noisy

plus, good science is about debate and the true innovators are often persecuted and laughed at... people don't like change... but this is also good for science... it makes people work harder at refining their theories

disagreeing with your fellow students and even a teacher is not a bad thing at all... it's what it's all about... as i said earlier, the true nature of human development may be some modification of an exisiting theory or may be even something we have not considered before... but for grade school it is best to teach what is the best guess of our time

once one hits college they can write their own theory and see how it flies

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Acran Mern

BJ, while I was in college, I had many professors attempt to present evolution as fact. When I questioned them on it, I became a target for the whole class. Those people I was dealing with had accepted evolution as fact. While the finer points of the theory may be up for debate in most people's minds, the idea that the whole thing might be wrong is completely foreign to most people.

i don't doubt your experience... but one should not project that onto the entire population (as the writer RÃ*an linked also does)... there are many good scientists and good teachers, they are just not as noisy

plus, good science is about debate and the true innovators are often persecuted and laughed at... people don't like change... but this is also good for science... it makes people work harder at refining their theories

disagreeing with your fellow students and even a teacher is not a bad thing at all... it's what it's all about... as i said earlier, the true nature of human development may be some modification of an exisiting theory or may be even something we have not considered before... but for grade school it is best to teach what is the best guess of our time

once one hits college they can write their own theory and see how it flies

[Insidious Rex]

Oh my god I cringe every time the Kansas school board gets into national news with these creationist spasms... Makes us look so backwards as a country...

Originally Posted by Acran Mern

it brings about a very poor mindset. If you have come into existence by the random falling together of genetics, this means that you are an accident. You have no purpose in life but your own gratification. The result is obvious if you look at culture today. Self-sufficiency and self-sacrifice are virtually gone. Giving your life for a cause, something considered courageous and noble a hundred years ago, makes you a lunatic today. There are many other elements responsible for this, but teaching kids that they came from a puddle of goo certainly rank high on my list.

and here in a nut shell is exactly the kind of twisted thinking I mean. Because evolution apparently goes against what the bible teaches then we must fight it at all costs. First of all you dont know this to be true. you dont know that god isnt GUIDING evolution and using it as a tool to make us better morally. How can you know this? Secondly, it is completely and utterly irrelevant of the scientific facts. You dont base what you teach as science to kids on whats (in your opinion) good for them or not.

Its the constant attack on evolution by creationists and some religious people that has lead to many many great and quality teachers feeling intimidated into even mentioning evolution in their class rooms. And frankly I find that amazingly sad. The ultimate agenda for these folks is bringing down what to them is an anti-christian belief system. Attacking it with creationism as the alternative was a joke so they gave that up. Now you have them pushing the stealth version of creationism with the intelligent design folks jumping up and down about their phDs and credentials. And fail that, you have school boards attempting to incorporate certain types of language that will be acceptable and unacceptable in science class... It truly scares me to death. Whats next?

[Insidious Rex]

Oh my god I cringe every time the Kansas school board gets into national news with these creationist spasms... Makes us look so backwards as a country...

Originally Posted by Acran Mern

it brings about a very poor mindset. If you have come into existence by the random falling together of genetics, this means that you are an accident. You have no purpose in life but your own gratification. The result is obvious if you look at culture today. Self-sufficiency and self-sacrifice are virtually gone. Giving your life for a cause, something considered courageous and noble a hundred years ago, makes you a lunatic today. There are many other elements responsible for this, but teaching kids that they came from a puddle of goo certainly rank high on my list.

and here in a nut shell is exactly the kind of twisted thinking I mean. Because evolution apparently goes against what the bible teaches then we must fight it at all costs. First of all you dont know this to be true. you dont know that god isnt GUIDING evolution and using it as a tool to make us better morally. How can you know this? Secondly, it is completely and utterly irrelevant of the scientific facts. You dont base what you teach as science to kids on whats (in your opinion) good for them or not.

Its the constant attack on evolution by creationists and some religious people that has lead to many many great and quality teachers feeling intimidated into even mentioning evolution in their class rooms. And frankly I find that amazingly sad. The ultimate agenda for these folks is bringing down what to them is an anti-christian belief system. Attacking it with creationism as the alternative was a joke so they gave that up. Now you have them pushing the stealth version of creationism with the intelligent design folks jumping up and down about their phDs and credentials. And fail that, you have school boards attempting to incorporate certain types of language that will be acceptable and unacceptable in science class... It truly scares me to death. Whats next?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

It truly scares me to death. Whats next?

write your own letter

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

It truly scares me to death. Whats next?

write your own letter

[Rían]

The type of religious/faith-based talk from ardent evolutionists that I've seen in some of the posts here is what I was hoping to NOT see I find it fascinating, but sad - and definitely unscientific.

I'm glad to not see it from all of the evolutionists here, though.

Personally, I am glad to see some people with the courage to take this subject (evolution) that has been taken over by some unscientific zealots and wrest it back into its proper scientific realm. The fervor and denial that I see in some people when ANY criticism of evolution is mentioned is just shocking to me.

Not ALL supporters of evolution are this way, IMO. But there's a vocal group that DOES react this way, and that has, IMO, been way out of line in giving evolution special treatment that no other discipline could dream of having. I'm glad to see some people brave the insults and stand up for real science.

I'm short on time now, but one thing I'd like to do in this thread is go through some of the proposed changes and discuss them. Also, I'd like to propose what I would say, if I were a biology teacher, to start off a section on origins. I think this could be a fascinating and informative thread, as long as we all keep our heads and tempers, and be openminded and read people's posts carefully and thoughtfully.

[Rían]

The type of religious/faith-based talk from ardent evolutionists that I've seen in some of the posts here is what I was hoping to NOT see I find it fascinating, but sad - and definitely unscientific.

I'm glad to not see it from all of the evolutionists here, though.

Personally, I am glad to see some people with the courage to take this subject (evolution) that has been taken over by some unscientific zealots and wrest it back into its proper scientific realm. The fervor and denial that I see in some people when ANY criticism of evolution is mentioned is just shocking to me.

Not ALL supporters of evolution are this way, IMO. But there's a vocal group that DOES react this way, and that has, IMO, been way out of line in giving evolution special treatment that no other discipline could dream of having. I'm glad to see some people brave the insults and stand up for real science.

I'm short on time now, but one thing I'd like to do in this thread is go through some of the proposed changes and discuss them. Also, I'd like to propose what I would say, if I were a biology teacher, to start off a section on origins. I think this could be a fascinating and informative thread, as long as we all keep our heads and tempers, and be openminded and read people's posts carefully and thoughtfully.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

write your own letter

I had a quick read thru this, and frankly, I think it will be the subject of some good discussion. For one thing, I hope it will clear up some of the ridiculous straw-men that are being proposed and laughed at and of course easily demolished.

Again, tho, I would like to note that they are NOT talking about teaching creationism, or ID, or any theory other than evolution, in Kansas. They are only talking about giving some air time to some valid, peer-reviewed scientific criticism against that holiest of holy grails, particle-to-people evolution (as opposed to micro-evolution, which is usually the bait-and switch thing that is offered when people object to "evolution"). And I say more power to 'em!

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

write your own letter

I had a quick read thru this, and frankly, I think it will be the subject of some good discussion. For one thing, I hope it will clear up some of the ridiculous straw-men that are being proposed and laughed at and of course easily demolished.

Again, tho, I would like to note that they are NOT talking about teaching creationism, or ID, or any theory other than evolution, in Kansas. They are only talking about giving some air time to some valid, peer-reviewed scientific criticism against that holiest of holy grails, particle-to-people evolution (as opposed to micro-evolution, which is usually the bait-and switch thing that is offered when people object to "evolution"). And I say more power to 'em!