05-26-2003, 07:53 PM | #601 | ||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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05-26-2003, 07:54 PM | #602 |
Elf Lord
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There's another thing that ties right into that, Gwaimir. Ah . . . I'll send you it over email. This thread shouldn't turn into Christian discoveries discussion .
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05-26-2003, 08:03 PM | #603 |
The Elven Queen Of All Pyros
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yes. evolution should be taught in school, but so also the controversy about it should be taught in school and the religious way of explaining how it happened
in my opinion...evolution did happend...g-d didnt just create humans and all the other animals
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05-26-2003, 08:08 PM | #604 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 05-26-2003 at 08:09 PM. |
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05-26-2003, 08:34 PM | #605 | |||||
Lord of the Pants
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Actually, the fact of the matter is that you cannot seperate the two. Both are reliant on changes within the alleles, however, one exhibits small changes (which are usually combined within the species), and one exhibits big changes (which either diverge or converge between species). Your idea that the two are somehow separate is erroneous. Quote:
Micro: within the species. (small changes at the genetic level) Macro: At, or above the species. Your example of the birmingham moth would actually be considered an example of macroevolution, not microevolution, btw. From: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/macroevolution.html This means that any mutations that cause significant changes in the phenotype, ie bipedalism, as opposed to quadrapedialism, also serve to significantly change/diverge the organism from its predecessors, and therefore the changes are occuring above the species, thefore macro. Quote:
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What examples are you thinking of here? I'd like to see less postulation, and more evidence to back your claims. Put your money where your mouth is. Last edited by Sheeana : 05-26-2003 at 08:36 PM. |
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05-26-2003, 08:34 PM | #606 |
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I agree, until there is some scientific proof of an "intelligent designer", keep it out of the schools. Just saying evolution is too complicated or random to happen naturally, is not a good enough reason to say intelligent designer exists. There are many churches available for teachings about God. Schools should stick to the known facts. That doesn't mean it can't be said we don't really know what created the Big Bang, but once the primordial soup started up, fossil records, dna mapping, and other scientific data works well for me. Keep religion out of school! Everyone has different beliefs, you shouldn't have it in school!
The theory of evolution and the theory of intelligent design are not on equal footing (IMO). Rereading all the posts in this threads will prove that! (Remember, I love you Rian! )
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05-26-2003, 08:37 PM | #607 | ||
Lord of the Pants
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05-26-2003, 08:45 PM | #608 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-26-2003, 08:50 PM | #609 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And I disagree with you!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-26-2003, 08:52 PM | #610 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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05-26-2003, 08:56 PM | #611 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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05-26-2003, 09:08 PM | #612 | |
Elf Lord
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This I posted earlier in this thread, when discussing the environmental research.
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05-26-2003, 09:09 PM | #613 |
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I was originally NOT going to post in this thread. But oh, well.
First of all Iron Parrot has already said pretty much all there needs to be said (as I read back to the beginning). Second, I get the impression from anti-Evolution posts here that they think teachers should just tell students that things just appeared from nowhere, as if by magic, despite the fact that evidence points to the contrary. Or just tell them to go talk to their parents about it. Many false and misleading statements have been posted here and in the 'Offshoot...' thread about fossil records. Truly, only under certain circumstances can a fossil form from the dead remains of an animal. Only the parts of an animal that contain minerals (like calcium) can actually be fossilized. This leaves out animals without some hard mineralized part(s). That's quite a lot of the earlier animals. Since most dead animals are eaten or parts carried off by scavengers, the vast majority of animals will not be fossilized. If the animal rots too much, no fossil either. If the animal is not covered in sediment quick enough... no fossil. See? The conditions under which an animal can actually be fossilized is not as common as you might think. And even when the animal is fossilized, it may be crushed or broken or heated under the pressure of the earth. All of these fossils are buried in layers. The top most would be considered the youngest. The bottom layers being the older fossils. Even microbial fossils have been found in rocks that are 2 billion years old. Through this layering and dating of rock, there is apparent a sequence of events... shelled organisms appear around 540 million years ago; simple fish 490 million years ago; amphibians 350 mil yrs ago; reptiles 310 mil; mammals 200 mil; primates (not human) appear 60 mil; early apes 25 mil; Australopithecine (human ancestors) 4 mil; and modern humans appear about 150 000 yrs ago to present. From the fossil records we do have, we know that a variety of animals lived on this earth, many of which are similar to the ones that now exist in our time. We can use these records to compare animals from differing time periods, their similarities and slight structure changes and adaptations over time. Evolution also explains hereditary variations in species. The study of genetics and molecular biology explain hereditary variations that are essential to the natural selection argument. Genetic variations result from changes, or mutations, in the nucleotide sequence of DNA, the molecule that genes are made from. Such changes in DNA now can be detected in a lab and described with great precision. Go science! Just look at humans for example. We all came out of Africa. We are all basically a living example of evolution. The first human population lived in Africa and over thousands of years migrated out moving north to Europe or East. We also know that modern living humans are not related to Neanderthal Man. We are however, related to Cro-Magnon Man. How do we know? Frozen bodies in Europe and Asia. We can genetically match those samples with current human samples. There is more... I just feel like this is long enough. Feel free to expand on what I have written or add more evidence. |
05-26-2003, 09:11 PM | #614 | |
Elf Lord
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And here is the conclusion of my post on the fast changing environment. There are other evidences too, like in Africa. I can get you that also, after you read this, if you want more.
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05-26-2003, 09:15 PM | #615 |
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Damn LE! That's a long winded post. *rubs eyes*
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05-26-2003, 09:19 PM | #616 |
Lord of the Pants
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Long winded, and erroneous. *sigh* Hey Ruinel, wanna join me at the wall here? *bangs head*
Leif, we've covered this before. Cirdan (spelled it right this time, dammit), myself, A-E, and JD debunked you. Must we cover this again? |
05-26-2003, 09:28 PM | #617 | ||
Elf Lord
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Fast environmental changes are another major problem with Macro evolution. The fact that Micro evolution is becoming broadly accepted solves the Macro evolution problem, if you accept it, and the missing intermediate species in one blow. The intermediate species were there and did exist at one time. There simply weren't many of them, because they were changing as the environment stabilized into a different form. After the environment had thus stabilized, major species were able to develop, and exist until the environment changed dramatically again. Thus the existence of small amounts of intermediate species is explained, along with the fact that major species are able to be found in different places. At least, that somewhat solves it. There are some discrepancies still, such as the fact that extremely similar species were found on different continents, which is totally illogical if you think that the break-up of the continents happened a long time ago. Fast environment and Micro evolution are accepted, scientifically. It's simply another step in logic to say that that's the reason we lack these intermediate species. This doesn't say Macro evolution doesn't exist, it simply says that it's had no major affect, because all the major changes happened quickly through Micro evolution. Quote:
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05-26-2003, 09:31 PM | #618 |
Elven Warrior
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Evolution should be taught in schools, but schools and religion should remain seperate.
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05-26-2003, 09:33 PM | #619 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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2) Seems to me that it makes more sense as physical death. Remember, that after the fall, people lived for a very LONG time, and there life started to (generally) decrease then. It seems to me rather logical (or at least not far-fetched) that the long life spans came after immortality. 3) If I remember correctly, the Hebrew word used means a twenty-four hour period...not sure though... 4) Why? Shutting up now.
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05-26-2003, 09:35 PM | #620 | |
Elf Lord
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Micro evolution is accepted and proved, as much as Macro evolution is, and in my opinion, more. Scientists are at least able to test Micro evolution because it's meant to take place in a short period of time. And they have tested it, and their findings were in my Biology book. As for the environment, that's scientific too. Cirdan ended up saying migration must be it, but that's simply because he refused to accept what scientists are saying about Micro evolution. Sheeana, I don't remember you being in that thread, anyway. Or are you really BeardofPants? She was occasionally in that argument, I remember. |
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