02-23-2004, 06:00 PM | #601 |
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Is that what you meant, Bomb?
And I would agree that many creation stories are fiction, or are part fiction, but given the highly observable fact that we're HERE, wouldn't there have to be ONE that is true?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
02-23-2004, 06:09 PM | #602 |
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ok now my turn!!
Did god make pathogenic viruses? If so did he mean for them to be "alive" or simply objects like a rocks? Why did god give us such an inefficient knee construction so prone to wear and tear and injury? Even an average engineer could have come up with a better system. Why did he make the human jaw too small for all its teeth leading to things like impacted wisdom teeth? Why did god give all other animals EXCEPT us AND other primates the ability to resist scurvey? The gene for resistance to it is broken in us and in other primates. Was god trying to trick us yet again into thinking we are closely related to apes or was it just a massive coincidence? Why do cell organelles such as mitochondria, chloroplasts, etc. have their own DNA, which is inherited separately from the rest of an organisms' genetic material? Why should the code for small elements within each eukaryotic cell be inherited separately and differently from that which forms the rest of the organism in all its intricacy: the leaves, bone, teeth, eyes, antennae, brains? An odd design. And the numerous structural and biochemical resemblances between these organelles and existing parasitic bacteria are mere coincidences, of course? Why did god make it such that ungulates could only derive nutrition from their food by inserting bacteria in their stomach? Why not give them enzymes like we have so they wouldnt need alien life inside them and chambers of different stomachs? What a huge silly design. What ever happened to effeciency in design here people! Why do burrowing animals or animals that live in the dark have non functioning eyes if they were created in full form? And finally... the genetic code itself. DNA has a remarkable copying fidelity... yet mutations (errors) happen all the time. If the Good Lord wanted all his creations to be separate, immutable kinds, all he had to do was make the copying mechanism flawless. Meiotic recombination and outcrossing (sex) would still make different individuals. Hey presto: no evolution. But the system is flawed... so does god want evolution?
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02-23-2004, 06:33 PM | #603 |
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This should prob. be in the creationism thread, but the quick answer is: please list all the incredibly intricate and amazing things that take place every second of every day for a human body to work, even WITH bad knees You couldn't even begin to compare the two.
*hands IRex some tylenol, because she has a little idea that his knees are sore ... *
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 02-23-2004 at 06:34 PM. |
02-23-2004, 07:32 PM | #604 | |
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BTW... if I got what Bombadillo was saying as wrong... then I apologize to him. |
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02-23-2004, 08:06 PM | #605 |
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But there must be ONE true account of how we really got here, right? Now you, personally, favor the fictional account called evolution , while I favor the true account, which is described in Genesis.
Teasing aside, all I mean is that regardless of what story people think is true, ONE version MUST be true. Perhaps we've never even heard the true account, but both you and I think we have, Ruinel - you favor evolution, I favor creation by the God of the Bible.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
02-23-2004, 08:57 PM | #606 |
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Hmmm, is that steam coming out of my ears? *ear wax pops out like a cork* Rian, what have you been up to?!
Rian, you naughty thing, need I point out that the bible has been the best piece of best-selling fiction for a very long time? *runs away with Rian's pants*
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02-23-2004, 09:02 PM | #607 | |
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02-24-2004, 12:08 AM | #608 | |
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02-24-2004, 12:23 AM | #609 | |
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02-24-2004, 12:26 AM | #610 | |
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Apache Creation Story
My turn.
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02-24-2004, 12:28 AM | #611 | |
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02-24-2004, 05:39 PM | #612 | |
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*decides to wear a skirt today* BTW, BOP, I'm glad you showed up, because I've been wanting to ask you a question, and this is certainly in your field. If you want to, answer it over in the creation/evolution thread, but you could prob. answer it fairly quickly here. One of the Mooters awhile back referred to all the masses of evidence of human evolution. The way it was worded made it seem like there were simply thousands of complete, pre-modern-human fossils, neatly laid out in family units, in fully-populated villages. That made me wonder - what ARE the actual (or at least approximate) numbers of pre-modern-human fossils, and what do the finds consist of? (i.e., 1 tooth, 3 teeth and a thighbone, a skull with some teeth and an armbone, etc. ) I've been wondering about this and thought you were the best person to ask this question. *steals her pants back, throws a hamster down BOP's pants*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-24-2004, 05:47 PM | #613 | |
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Lower Kingdom Creation Myth Only the ocean existed at first. Then Ra (the sun) came out of an egg that appeared on the surface of the water. Ra brought forth four children, the gods Shu and Geb and the goddesses Tefnut and Nut. Shu and Tefnut became the atmosphere. They stood on Geb, who became the earth, and raised up Nut, who became the sky. Ra ruled over all. Geb and Nut later had two sons, Set and Osiris, and two daughters, Isis and Nephthys. Osiris succeeded Ra as king of the earth, helped by Isis, his sister-wife. Set, however, hated his brother and killed him. Isis then embalmed her husband's body with the help of the god Anubis, who thus became the god of embalming. The powerful charms of Isis resurrected Osiris, who became king of the netherworld, the land of the dead. Horus, who was the son of Osiris and Isis, later defeated Set in a great battle and became king of the earth. (Upper Kingdom creation story) At first there was only Nun, the primal ocean of chaos that contained the beginnings of everything to come. From these waters came Ra who, by himself, gave birth to Shu and Tefnut. Shu, the god of air, and Tefnut, the goddess of moisture gave birth to Geb and Nut, the earth god and the sky goddess. And so the physical universe was created. Men were created from Ra's tears. They proved to be ungrateful so Ra, and a council of gods, decided they should be destroyed. Re created Sekhmet to do the job. She was very efficient and slaughtered all but a few humans, when Ra relented and tricked her into stopping. Thus was the present world created. Against Ra's orders, Geb and Nut married. Ra was incensed and ordered Shu to separate them, which he did. But Nut was already pregnant, although unable to give birth as Ra had decreed she could not give birth in any month of any year. Thoth, the god of learning, decided to help her and gambling with the moon for extra light, was able to add five extra days to the 360-day calendar. On those five days Nut gave birth to Osiris, Horus the Elder, Set, Isis, and Nephthys successively. Osiris became the symbol of good, while Set became the symbol of evil. And thus the two poles of morality were fixed once and for all. |
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02-24-2004, 06:01 PM | #614 |
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OK, here's a part of the cration myth in Kalevala, Finnish national epic:
195 So the mother of the water, Water mother, airy maiden, Raised her knee above the surface And her shoulder from the wave As a refuge for the scaup And a welcome nesting place. 201 Then that scaup, the lovely bird, Fluttering round and hovering over Spied the water-mother's knee 200 Lifted from the sea's blue surface; Took it for a grassy tussock Or a tuft of new-grown turf. 207 Plies about, flitting here and there, Settles on the lifted kneecap. It is there she builds her nest, There she laid her golden eggs - Six were the golden eggs she laid, But the seventh was of iron. 213 She began to hatch the eggs there, 210 Heating up the lifted kneecap; Brooded one day, brooded two days, Even on the third day brooding. Then the mother of the water, Little mother, airy maiden, Felt the rising heat upon her, Felt as if her skin were scorching, Thought her kneecap was on fire, That her very veins were melting. 223 All at once she jerked her knee, 220 Agitating every member, And the eggs rolled in the water To the tumbling of the tides; Into bits the eggs were broken, Shattered into crumbs and pieces. 229 But the eggs and pieces were not Mixed up with the mud and water For at once the crumbs grew comely And the pieces beautiful. One egg's lower half transformed 230 And became the earth below, And its upper half transmuted And became the sky above; From the yolk the sun was made, Light of day to shine upon us; From the white the moon was formed, Light of night to gleam above us; All the colored brighter bits Rose to be the stars of heaven And the darker crumbs changed into 240 Clouds and cloudlets in the sky.
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02-24-2004, 06:04 PM | #615 |
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the story goes on..
245 Quickly now the time goes forward As the hurrying years pass by While the newborn sun is shining And the newborn moon is gleaming. Still the mother goes on swimming, Water mother, airy maiden, Swimming on those peaceful waters Over misty seawaves wandering. Before her flowed the liquid deep, 250 Behind her shone the empty heaven. 255 In the ninth year, tenth of summers, Raised her head out of the sea, Lifts her crown above the water; Set to work on her creations, Hastens on her handiwork, Out upon the clear sea surface, Out upon the open ocean. 263 Where she gave her hand a turn There she put the capes in order; 260 Where her foot struck bottom, there Grottoes for the fish were formed; Where the bubbles reached the surface There the deeps were made still deeper. 269 Where her side had scraped the land There the level shores appeared; Where she turned her foot to landward There the salmon grounds were formed, And wherever her head touched land There the broad bays opened out. 270 275 Swimming farther out from shore She halted on the smooth sea surface Where she made the little islands. Then she raised the hidden reefs Where the grounded ships would founder, Many a seaman lose his life. 281 Now the islands were in order And the small isles of the sea; Pillars for the sky were planted, Lands and continents created; 280 On the rocks the writs were written" And the signs drawn on the cliffs. Yet Vainamoinen is unborn, Poet eternal not emerged. 289 Old reliable Vainamoinen Traveled in his mother's womb, Traveled there for thirty summers And as many winters too On the ocean now so peaceful In that misty world of water. 290 295 He is pondering, he is thinking, How to live or how survive In this dismal hiding place, In this narrowest of dwellings Where he never saw the moon, Never got a glimpse of sunlight. 301 So he speaks out in these words, Says it in these sentences: "Free me. Moon, and Sun, release me! Thou, Great Bear, do ever guide me, 300 Lead a man here through strange doors, Through these unfamiliar gates. Release me from this narrow nest, From this shut-in dwelling place! Guide the traveler to the land, Child of mankind to the open To behold the moon in heaven And to wonder at the daylight, Get to know the Great Bear's grandeur Or just to stare up at the stars!" 310 315 Since the moon did not arrive Nor the sun come to release him, Alienated from his birth time, Impatient of this dull existence, He pushed against his prison lock Pressing with his nameless finger, Slid the bony bolt aside, With his left toe opened it; Scrabbling with his nails he came Crawling through the exit door. 320 325 Headlong in the sea he tumbled With a hand-turn in the waves. There the man was left alone In the rough care of the billows. 329 There he floated for five years, Six, seven, even eight years, Stopped at last upon the surface There beside a nameless headland, On a treeless continent. 335 Stmggling up with knee and elbow 330 He stood up to see the world: To behold the moon in heaven And to wonder at the daylight, Get to know the Great Bear's grandeur Or just to stare up at the stars. 341 That was the birth of Vainamoinen. Such the daring poefs descent From the beautiful who bore him, From his mother, Ilmatar.
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02-24-2004, 06:08 PM | #616 | |
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02-24-2004, 06:21 PM | #617 |
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Long poem, Nerdanel.
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02-24-2004, 06:27 PM | #618 |
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Yeah I know. But I shortened it, and that's just a minor part of the whole book. I haven't read it yet but it's written in old Finnish, and just poems..
Well, I think it would be interesting to read the whole thing, since that was the belief of my ancestors. But it's gone now, "thanks to" Christianity.. I also think it's a rather interesting way to look at creation.
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02-24-2004, 06:48 PM | #619 | |
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I'm sorry, but even if I knew the numbers approximately, I don't even know how accurate it would be. Anyway, here are some of the 'prominent' finds, which give you an idea on what exactly survives the archaeological/geological record: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html - I think Turkana Boy is the only almost complete find on there! I don't know who gave you the idea that there are masses of complete skeletons, in villages, but they are not correct. This is a rare phenomenon, at least until the advent of modern Homo sapiens. Even the famous 'Lucy' (named after a Beatles song!) skeleton (Australopithecus afarensis) is only 40% complete, and that's considered to be pretty darned good. Hope this helps. Btw: I was just enrolling down at uni, and I decided to take a look through my old dept, and I got all nostalgic! I guess a small part of me still wants to finish that anthropology masters!
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02-25-2004, 12:00 AM | #620 | |
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A: The contradictory statements are simply different interpretations altered to better fit the local community, and to make the religion more attractive to the immediate society. B: In my opinion *mind you this is an opinion only* Religion serves as a social crutch to help us as a group of humans better understand the unexplainable world around us, and to give some feeling of satisfaction that things truly do happen for a reason, as opposed to simple, random events on a collosal scale. Now, don't get me wrong, i'm a very spiritual person, however organized religion has always made me feel uncertian, and it has lost much of it's appeal to me after such attrocities as crusades, jihads, and corruption.
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If you must judge others.....do not judge others by the height they have climbed; rather, judge them by the depths they have risen from. Think before you act, but act before it's too late. He is a man of sense who does not grieve for what he has not, but rejoices in what he has. You can stand tall without standing on someone. You can be a victor without having victims. The Utopian Oldschool Champ. http://games.swirve.com/utopia www.Orderofavalon.com |
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