06-23-2006, 12:51 PM | #601 |
Elf Lord
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possibly a premature intellectation, Elfhelm, but not necessarily an immaculate preconception if birth control were in *ahem* play!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
06-23-2006, 01:18 PM | #602 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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Or if I were taken bodily into heaven while taking apart the chariot, I would be deconstructing my own assumption!
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06-23-2006, 01:32 PM | #603 | ||||
Elven Warrior
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Singapore I have my suspicions about- despite being chummy with China, the government is very conservative and wary of home-grown communism/socialism/liberalism/atheism/homsexuality, which it tends to regard as much of a muchness- I think the reported numbers of believers are exaggerated. The US is the big outlier, but the reports of religious trends there are interesting. While the number of atheists is growing, there is a very large increase in the number who are simply "none of the above". Quote:
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The number of non-believers has been growing at phenomenal rates in the advanced economies since WWII, and there is no indication of this slowing, so without even considering the rest of the world, the absolute number of atheists is almost certain to increase at least over the next few decades (barring the Second Coming ) until saturation point has been reached. So how can a rapidly-increasing population be deemed to be headed for extinction? If an environmental change causes a large increase in the zebra population while causing an even larger increase in the antelope population, does that mean the zebras are headed for extinction? Aha, but the countries that are atheistic also have low reproduction rates, so they are eventually doomed to be overwhelmed by the faster breeding Hindus, Chistians and Muslims of the developing world. That would be a problem if the only way to get more atheists is by breeding them, but obviously conversion is very important, too. Will the grandchildren of those Hindus, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims etc who immgrate to the advanced economies be more like their contemporaries or more like their ancestors? The one thing that seems to be true is that the more developed a country becomes, the less religious, even in the USA (think about it- aren't the Fundies constantly decrying the secularisation of America?) So it would appear that as countries become wealthier and more educated, the less force religion has. Question- do you think the scientists in countries like India, Pakistan, Iran, Brazil and Kenya are less religious than the general population, or more so? Do they more closely match the opinions of their counterparts in the developed nations? So, the conclusion is that non-believers are growing in terms of absolute numbers, while declining as a percentage of the world's population, as there is still a large and growing bulge in the ranks of the poor and uneducated. |
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06-23-2006, 02:12 PM | #604 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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And I'll add that you have to mix in with the number who "identify themselves" as something with the number who attend church or the number who believe it, because even some of those who attend church are really only practicing ancestor veneration. Plus the definition of the word "Christian" isn't even agreed on by Christians, so how can the census bureau know for sure? I think when you do those calculations: .75 x .4 = .3 or really only 30% of the US regularly attends a Christian church, which includes Christian Scientists... wait... here are the figures... and 10% didn't even supply an affiliation, which to me means they really don't even know... more ancestor veneration...
http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/images/image001.gif |
06-23-2006, 03:37 PM | #605 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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That certainly doesn't mean they don't know, Elfhelm. A lot of Protestants don't like to identify themselves at all beyond "just Christian", or sometimes beyond "Protestant".
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06-23-2006, 03:43 PM | #606 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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The Bahá’* Faith
I guess I'll go into it. We could use a good discussion topic. And I doubt anyone else would start this topic.
Basically, the Bahá’* believe that God sends prophets at important junctures in human development. Moses arrived when he was needed. Jesus was right for his time and place, and the era that followed saw advancements in the way people treated each other. Mohammed, too, was needed. After the Enlightenment, after humanity re-discovered the actual correct shape of the planet, the nature of gravity, the need for gender equality, the need for racial equality, evolution, etc., God sent a new prophet. His name was Abdul Bahá. He made whole again that which was sundered, science and religion. He taught that science was a way to know God. I basically agree with all but two points. They don't let gays marry, and they require monogamy. I understand the latter, as they formed in a society that used polygamy to repress women, and they established monogamy as a path to gender equality. As to their ruling on gay marriage, well they elect a council that makes these decisions and to be a Bahá’* you must agree to abide by the decisions of the council, and if you want to change the decision, you have to get it on the council's agenda and convince enough people. Their structure is a democracy. They endorse capitalism, but they expect their capitalists to be benevolent. There is a lot to learn about them, and if you care to look, google them. (I gotta respect the rule not to post ads so I don't think I can put their URL here.) The first hit on Google is obviously their website. Has anyone else checked out this group? Do you know that they are being persecuted in Egypt and Iran? When you check them out, if you know me, you'll see why I say I am almost Bahá’*. "We" read ALL the scriptures from ALL the human cultures. Also, it is forbidden for a Bahá’* to proseltize (spelling), so I'll honor that, too. |
06-23-2006, 04:01 PM | #607 |
Fëanorophobic
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I read a newspaper article about them and how they're being prosecuted by Isalmic radicalists in Egypt. I think the Muslim radicals regard them as a schism or a heresy of their own religion.
Also IIRC, the article said they regarded Abdul Baha' as another incarnation of God. |
06-23-2006, 04:06 PM | #608 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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The threads 'Ancient Greek Religion question' and 'The Bahá’* Faith' have been merged with 'Theological Opinions' as they have similar topics.
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06-23-2006, 04:10 PM | #609 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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My experience concurs with yours, Gwai. But also, in my experience, there are a lot of people who identify themselves in a questionaire as something, but if you ask them what they actually believe, it's not the doctrine of their identity. So that's just religion-as-apparel, in my book. And also, from what I've gotten in discussions, most people believe in a life after death because their mother died and they think she can still see them and that they can still send her their love and that she will put in a good word for them with God. Which is, in fact, ancestor veneration. They don't really think Jesus could walk on water, but they do think their dead ancestors can influence the world through God. Ancestor veneration, in fact. Right? But if asked to identify their religion... protestant, non-denominational... because they went to some protestant church when they were growing up, and their ancestors are watching over their shoulder as they are filling out the form, so they put in the answer which will get them the influence with God, etc. I guess I sound pretty cynical. To me, to be a Christian means you believe that there is only one way into heaven, and that is to say that Jesus was the Christ, the one and only Christ there ever was, and that by his torturous pains and cruel slow death, your sins were forgiven.
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06-23-2006, 04:25 PM | #610 | |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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06-23-2006, 04:29 PM | #611 | |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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06-24-2006, 01:56 AM | #612 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Elfhelm, inked - ROFL!! *applause*
(preconceptions and assumptions, etc.) Very funny!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-24-2006, 03:21 AM | #613 |
Elven Warrior
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Sorry, my bad for not providing links:
http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/facu...n/atheism.html Atheism: Contemporary Rates and Patterns http://www.religioustolerance.org/us_rel1.htm RELIGIOUS MAKEUP OF THE UNITED STATES http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm Religious identification in the U.S. |
06-24-2006, 03:28 AM | #614 |
Elven Warrior
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And here's some scientists who seem to be still having good dreams.
Dark Matter and Dark Energy: From the Universe to the Laboratory http://pancake.uchicago.edu/~carroll...ab05/img0.html Take a look- it's a wonderful click-through guide to the latest ideas on the frontier of cosmology; simple and with great illustrations |
06-24-2006, 03:50 AM | #615 | |
Elven Warrior
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They're persecuted by Muslims because Islam believes Mohammed was the last Prophet who revealed the perfect Truth in the Koran; anyone who comes after him is a False Prophet promoting heresy. Sort of the way orthodox Christians looked at Joseph Smith . Personally, I can't get into a religion whose major prophet is called Bob. (alright, alright, Bab) |
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09-01-2006, 08:41 PM | #616 | ||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Even if they do refer to physical death, it doesn't mean that it is actually the death penalty. Does not God say, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay"? Quote:
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Our Lord, however, indicated that if a person does some ill which is deserving of execution, they may be executed, by a sinless person. This draws me to the conclusion that only God may lawfully take life. "The LORD giveth, and the LORD hath taken away".
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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09-01-2006, 10:21 PM | #617 | ||||
Elf Lord
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Thus there is no reason to think this is talking about the afterlife. Furthermore, the passage that says, "his blood be on his own head," makes it clear that God is talking about physical rather than spiritual death. Spirits don't have blood. Also, at the end of the chapter, God refers to the death of Israel. That judgment was a historical physical judgment carried out through King Nebuchadnezzar, not a spiritual judgment. Thus, the context indicates that this was a physical death that was described in the earlier parts of the chapter as well. Let us also consider the rest of the content of Ezekiel. Such an abrupt departure into afterlife description would be also a wierd detour, considering the message of the rest of the book. The first 24 chapters of Ezekiel are about the physical destruction and judgment of Israel, and chapters 25-32 are about the physical destructions of the other nations. Chapter 18 fits in neatly with the rest of the message by describing how God's judgment on men works, and it justifies and explains God's use of the death penalty, part of the judgment he was about to inflict on them. For all these reasons, we can make the reasonable conclusion that in this chapter, God says the death penalty is a deserved judgment for some earthly sins. Quote:
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"'If a man strikes someone with an iron object so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death. Or if anyone has a stone in his hand that could kill, and he strikes someone so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death. Or if anyone has a wooden object in his hand that could kill, and he hits someone so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death. THe avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death; when he meets him, he shall put him to death. If anyone with malice aforethought shoves another or throws something at him intentionally so that he dies or if in hostility he hits him with his fist so that he dies, that person shall be put to death; he is a murderer. The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death when he meets him.'" Verse 30-31: "'Anyone who kills a person is to be put to death as a murderer only on the testimony of witnesses. But no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness. "'Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who deserves to die. He must surely be put to death.'" If God established this law, this system of witnesses and judgment by the assembly, and said that the death penalty was good, then it was good, just and holy. The death penalty is just and God also does not demand exclusive right to use it, but rather commanded his own nation's law officials to use it in the court of law. Quote:
I see the New Covenant revealed in that passage you brought up. Jesus came to have mercy on us, not to exact justice on us. Even so, he said in the scripture, "I do not come to condemn the world but to save it." In the same way, even though this woman he had before him deserved to die, he had mercy on her and saved her. Just as he saves us all, only done here for this woman in the flesh. What I think this incident reveals to us is first of all, a symbol for God's saving us all. And second of all, it reveals to us that as we are all guilty of sin, we should show mercy as well as justice and should bond our justice system with mercy, just as Jesus did. Now, I do not think that this passage reveals that the death penalty should be abolished. This woman had sinned. If she didn't deserve death at our hands, she certainly deserved some penalty. Jesus didn't give her any penalty. Now if this is to be applied strictly to our justice system, you'd have to say that we should give no penalty at all for people's crimes! After all, we have all sinned! So which of us should demand that someone else pay a penalty for sinning? I think that Jesus' message wasn't this, but rather was simply that justice and mercy should be wedded together.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-02-2006, 12:06 AM | #618 |
Elven Warrior
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Ezekiel 18: 13
" He lends at usury and takes excessive interest. Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he will surely be put to death and his blood will be on his own head." I would like to draw this to the attention of the people who issued my credit card.... |
09-02-2006, 12:38 AM | #619 |
Elf Lord
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The one thing you may want to note there, as you do that, is that the scripture here says, "because he has done ALL these detestable things." In other words, it's not the death penalty for each of those individual crimes, as far as I can make out. Rather, it's for the whole batch, or a whole bunch of the forementioned, anyway.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
09-02-2006, 03:52 AM | #620 |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
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Gwai also brought up Verse 26: "If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die." Too me it seems a single crime justifies the death penalty. Not just the whole batch.
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