06-22-2006, 01:53 AM | #601 | |||||
Co-President of Entmoot
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But also, radical doesn't mean left wing. Radical means extreme left or extreme right wing. One could be a radical fundamentalist ("right") or a radical communist ("left"), for example. Being gay isn't untraditional, telling others and/or ackowledging to yourself is untraditional. Then again, 100 years ago, women voting was highly untraditional. This doesn't mean the fight for gay rights is exactly the same. I'm mentioning the sufferage movement because saying something is not traditional does not mean that thing is wrong. Quote:
I think it's because generally gay people don't want to be anti-traditional, they just want to be equal. Quote:
Secondly, maybe for societal reasons, the institution of marriage should change. What if we had this as a comprimise. Marriage becomes entirely the province of religions, and civil unions are entirely up to governments. Governments decide who can have a civil union (both over 19, not drunk at the time, etc. etc.). Religions decide who get the marriage of their respective religion (member of said religion, opposite genders, whatever is required). If someone wanted to be married, in the way we think of it now, they'd get the government to civil union them, then they'd go down the church/mosque/synagogue/wherever and get a religious marriage too. A traditional Christian (or Muslim, or whoever) marriage would remain just that (unless you're a heretical liberal Anglican like me ), and governments would be legally recognizing all couples as equal.
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06-22-2006, 04:00 AM | #602 | ||||
Elf Lord
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Hector, I know you mean well, but I have seldom seen a post so thoroughly steeped in the unconscious prejudice towards gays.
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Can I remind you that gays lead the way in HIV/AIDS prevention, education and treatment? In what other ways would you want them to behave so as to be "seen well in the eyes of society"? |
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06-22-2006, 04:28 AM | #603 | |
the Shrike
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06-22-2006, 04:44 AM | #604 | |
of the House of Bëor
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Gay marriage is not allowed, though; and certainly not a very big issue. A balloon blown up before the elections, but nothing more; which is really a shame, if we look at it that way... What they could aim for, it would certainly be the state marriage.
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06-22-2006, 01:04 PM | #605 | |
Elven Warrior
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06-22-2006, 01:08 PM | #606 |
Elven Warrior
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I've heard that in Japan, driven by Western media influences, "church weddings" (complete with white bridal gowns, chapels, and walks down the aisle) are so popular that western foreigners- suitably aged and grave looking preferred- can make decent incomes by wearing robes and presiding over said ceremonies
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06-22-2006, 08:24 PM | #607 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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06-22-2006, 08:41 PM | #608 | ||
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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hector: I don't think that saying that to them (gays) will or should convince them, but that's what it seems to be. And btw Jonathan, "As far as I know, Americans in particular are eager to stand up and fight for their rights. Can't you relate to those gays and gay couples who feel society and the government view them as inferiour to heterosexual couples? Can't you relate to their fight for the rights that they think they are entitled to?" Let's not be so wide-brushing , because gays have in fact, made much progress in this country. But this "Final Frontier" to get gay marriage legalized, is NOT just about "us conservatives" bieng "against" them just because they're gay. It's because we don't want to change the meaning of marriage, and our reasons behind that are many, and I wont repeat, because you probably already know. Quote:
A few states out here are still pretty conservative, but that doesnt mean they're murderous Your second paragraph starts with a sentence I completely agree with in a way. It's not like they're treated like slaves over here if thats what you imagine, so really I can't say that they are treated as a separate race of species...except that it is often put forward by the ACLU that anybody who is liberal like them gets special treatment. I think you understood that by "responsible" I meant sexually responsible. So Democrats didn't really fit in there too well . You're right about opening debate and so on, and I agree with that. But in this country its not "should we accept gays or not?" It's "what is going to come with the gay marriage packet?" And it does entail many things. If we give gays their marriage, we have to legalize polygamy, which is basically economic suicide. We have to legalize inter-species marriage, and heck! probably inter-family marriage too. Thats a bit of the "economic" side of the issue.
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06-22-2006, 08:53 PM | #609 |
Elf Lord
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GM : SHEE???
pm me ! *this reminds me* : frowns at earniel |
06-22-2006, 08:57 PM | #610 | |||||
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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I don't complain about generalising, I complained about "lumping" political gays with religious gays It may not be "just labelling", how many diverse kinds of gays am I supposed to imagine? I should only have to know that each person is different enough from hsi neighbor. If you want to really split hairs, this is the country with enough subjects to keep you on your toes for eternity. Quote:
What reason do they have to be angry? Quote:
From real things come stereotypes, and it even applies to gays believe it or not. Quote:
I want them to show that they are people, not babies who hide behind the ACLU's skirts.
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06-22-2006, 09:04 PM | #611 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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*sigh* I can't defend myself enough I suppose, because I don't want my point to be "why do gays exist?" I want to get to the bottom of this gay marriage issue. And for a refresher: We in the US have Civil Unions For Societal, as well as some moral and personal reasons, a majority of people reject the idea of gay marriage. But you guys say that gays are not just one set of radical lefties, and I have to believe that, it's obviously true. On the other hand, I don't see the desperation to be seen as equal. Gosh. Time for library to shut down. I'll be back soon!
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06-22-2006, 09:10 PM | #612 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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06-22-2006, 10:27 PM | #613 | |
Elf Lord
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despite having no or indeed any idea of the context or meaning of this post, since none is given, i get the impression it is anti-british - and anti European Christian - why? I fail to see why you seem intent on offending both Christians, Europeans, Americans, gays, non-gays et al hector???? what's going on there, man???? |
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06-23-2006, 05:25 AM | #614 |
Elf Lord
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Dunno. Some sort of malfunction anyway.
Hector, just saying "some gays are responsible, some aren't" doesn't absolve one from prejudice. You have to actually not be prejudiced as well. Responsible for what? Getting AIDS? So, no stereotyping going on there then. As for the "hiding behind the ACLU's skirts" comment, I have no idea where that comes from. Sorry, but I relaly can't follow your argument. Iit looks to me that in your mind you have all the gay stuff all mixed up in a bucket and are just trotting out whatever fires off when thinking about gays. And you still haven't stated what reason "other folks" have to be angry with gays. Because they want to be treated equally? |
06-23-2006, 08:32 AM | #615 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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06-23-2006, 08:34 AM | #616 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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ONCE AGAIN FOLKS-THE SUBJECT NEEDS TO BE TAKEN IN TO ACCOUNT WHEN POSTING REPLIES-WE HAVE OTHER THREADS FOR CHRISTIANITY, ETC.
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06-26-2006, 12:02 PM | #617 |
Elf Lord
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We WANTSSSSSSSS IT !!!!! WE WANTS S S S S IT !!!!
or doesssss we? http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=91504 excerpt... Date: 2006-06-24 Same-Sex Marriage Flounders Few Homosexuals Interested in Tying the Knot AMSTERDAM, Netherlands, JUNE 24, 2006 (Zenit.org).- After the clamor to legalize same-sex marriage, it turns out that not many homosexuals really want it. Following a bitter battle last year, the Spanish government gave homosexuals the right to marry. Since the law took effect last July 3, until May 31, only 1,275 same-sex marriages took place, reported the Madrid daily newspaper ABC last Saturday. Comparatively, that would add up to a mere 0.6% of the 209,125 marriages contracted in Spain during 2005. Of the total number of same-sex marriages, 923 were between males and 352 among females. ....
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06-26-2006, 03:55 PM | #618 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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06-26-2006, 06:03 PM | #619 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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Location: Portland, OR
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I called my best friend back East a few years ago when it got legalized here in Portland and said, "Come on over and visit us and you two can get married." They have been together over ten years now.
He said, "Are you kidding? I don't want D____'s income considered when I apply for college grants. And I don't want to saddle him with my debt." I said but the house is in his name, what will you do if he dies? He said he would rather not have the house if D____ died first. So I guess there's more to consider than the joy of standing up together before all the people in both your families and professing you love, eating the cake, dancing the dances. I guess there's more to life than the cake topping with two males in handsome tuxedos. But since we are "family", in other words, spiritual brothers, I wanted to see them get married. But it's their call, of course. |
06-27-2006, 04:23 AM | #620 |
Elf Lord
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Similar story here. Many gay couples don't want to "copy" straight ones.
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