Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Lief Erikson]

Sorry if my going on about the new covenant was unnecessary, I just got excited by RÃ*an's post, which seemed a completion of mine.

Originally posted by RÃ*an
(Hey, Lief, your post came in before mine again! You're welcome )

Hey, I'm only 3 posts behind you!!! Woo-hoo!! And I plan to make 2 more posts here, too - I might catch you But please don't let that stop YOU from posting anymore, because I really like your posts, and would rather be behind you in post count and have you post

Logical that one got through, it was short! I actually don't pay any attention to my post count, only glancing at it rarely. I expect you will catch me soon. And don't worry, you haven't stopped my posts .

[Rían]

Here's the link - free will


(I'm just joking around about the post count, Lief It was such a big deal for awhile, and it's so funny that the admins all have over 60,000 because of the spam thing, and all the newbies always wonder how they made so many posts!)

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I'm just joking around about the post count, Lief

I knew you were . I guess I just should have put a bigger grin on my smilie.

[Rían]

And here's my closing section on the topic of how God can even offer salvation to really, really awful people.

First point was roughly that only God can see into people's hearts and thus judge justly (and thus people that look good could really be quite bad, and vice versa); second point was that we all draw our various lines as to who we think should get into heaven (based on deeds), but to a perfect and holy God, ALL sin is an abhorrance (and rightly so) - God's standard is perfection.

The third point is that although God's standards of getting into heaven are "tougher", His LOVE for all people is GREATER.

And just a quick illustration of the relative goodness/badness of people compared to God's standards...

We have a little climby-thing in our backyard that the kids love to climb on. There's little holes in the sides that let you climb up. My older son goes all the way to the top and sits on the roof. My youngest nephew plays on the first little steppy-hole. My middle kids climb up to the platform on the middle.

Now let's imagine that God's standard is like Mt. Everest. Now sin means falling short of God's standard, and the Bible says that we are ALL sinners (Romans 3:23). If you can picture that little climber thing at the foot of Mt. Everest, then the "really good" person might be like my oldest son, who made it to the top of the climber; the "fairly decent fellow" might be like my middle kids that make it to the platform in the middle, and the "really horrible" person would be like my youngest nephew, who just can barely reach the first climbing hole, or sometimes just stays in the dirt. My oldest son could look down at his youngest cousin and say "hey, I'm MUCH higher up than you are!!", and that would be true. But look at the goal - what is it, 29,000 feet? - EVERYONE on the climber is so, SO, SO far off from the goal, that really, comparision is absurd! (Now I'm ONLY talking about the concept of offering salvation to only the 'good' people - of course, we need to judge people's actions and give consequences through our legal system!)

God says that even our best efforts to achieve righteousness by our own works are like "filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6), and like I pointed out earlier in some of the verses in Romans, the law was to SHOW us that we cannot live w/o sinning. (Also from Romans 3:20 - "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.") Now God points this out not to knock us down, but to get us out of the totally wrong belief that our own works can get us to heaven. And this belief will only lead to our death.

And He loves us so much - ALL of us - that He sent His Son to pay the penalty FOR us (think of penalty in terms of a fine imposed in a court as the penalty for an unlawful deed) - we are UNABLE to pay the fine, but another - Jesus- paid the fine for us (Romans 5:8 - "But God demonstrates His own love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.") And becoming a Christian means accepting the fact that I have sinned, that I cannot pay the penalty myself, that Jesus paid the penalty for me as a free gift of His love, and that He is rightful Lord of my life (from Romans 10:9 - "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved").

I hope that helps answer the question that Coney brought up about how it is "right" for God to even offer salvation to the people that do horrible things.

[Rían]

And one last point - is it good for pedophiles (to use Coney's example) to stop abusing children? I think everyone would say that it certainly is. Well, non-Christian pedophiles are a SLAVE to that particular sin (sin is MASTER over them, as I said in an earlier post). Their behavior can sometimes be helped through counseling, etc., but the slavery to the sin is NOT broken.

Now for a pedophile that becomes a Christian, the slavery to that sin is broken. I'm not saying that it's an instantaneous thing by any means, but a Christian, with the power of God in their lives and because they are a "new person" in Christ (Galatians 2:20), can, by definition, make FAR greater changes in their behavior towards what is right (and again, these things are difficult to judge correctly sometimes by outward appearances, because a really hard-core pedophile that becomes Christian might have more trouble breaking away from the sin than a non-Christian pedophile who is not as hard-core; do you see what I'm saying? But the point is, the hard-core pedophile's enslavement to the sin will be broken, and he will be MUCH, MUCH better than if he hadn't become a Christian). So it is a good thing for all involved that pedophiles are indeed "eligible" for salvation. And also, a pedophile that becomes a Christian can help other pedophiles in a way that a Christian that hasn't struggled with this sin just can't do.

Just a quick note, then I'm done for the night (I sure made up for being gone over the weekend, didn't I? ) - although the sin is forgiven, there are still consequences to pay for the sin. As a pedophile that becomes a Christian sees more accurately the horribleness of his sin, his remorse and grief will be tremendous, and he will live with this his whole life. And restitution is a concept promoted in the Bible - he should turn himself in to authoritites, IMO, if he has not been caught, and seek to make whatever restitution he can to the victims.

[Lief Erikson]

Just one final thing I'd like to add onto that, before going to bed (It's getting late out here, as you know, RÃ*an ). For those who aren't aware, the kind of Christian RÃ*an is talking about in her post is the born again Christian who has had a spiritual awakening. There are plenty of Christians out there who claim to be Christians and who go to church and pay their tythes but who don't have Christ living in their lives. In case some of you think born again means simply, the right kind of Christian, it refers to a spiritual, life changing experience that redirects your course in life and brings you to the Father. For plenty of 'Christians', this acknowledgment of sin, having God actively working to improve their righteousness, etc. is not happening because they haven't turned their hearts to God.

Now I'll be going for the time being (It's getting really late where I live), but I'll hopefully be back tomorrow. Any further questions you have, MasterMothra, feel free to bring up. They encourage thought and sometimes research on our part, as well as clarifying things for you, which is a benefit all around . I have personally found many of the questions you have asked in the past very helpful for me in my own faith, by being forced to think about my beliefs and what the Bible says. I don't have everything from the start by any means, and it's a learning process for me as well .

[Rían]

Yes, I mean the "born-again" Christian who, as I said, is saved as in Romans 10:9 - a specific choice to believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord, and a life that reflects this decision (i.e., there is "fruit" borne from the decision - this Christian is a "doer" of the word, not a "hearer" only, which reflects the true faith, as the book of James explains.) I went to church for many years and was NOT a Christian until I made this choice in my mind and heart and submitted myself to His lordship (which basically means I pray and study the Bible and other helpful books to know God's will for my life and do the best I can to obey it, with His help).

And I need to get the kids off to school, then I'm going on a field trip with kid #2, but I just wanted to say:

Happy Bday Master Mothra!

I hope you have a very happy day today, and pray for you to very soon have a spiritual bday into Christ

[MasterMothra]

thank you very much for the b-day greeting, i am humbled.

your reliance in god(jesus) as your lord and saviour is impressive to say the least. i have read over the bible many times as a christian and non-christian(for lack of a better word) but have found it lacking the necessary elements for me to seriously consider it as anything more than a nice read. i seriously doubt that i will change any of my opinions regarding this through further study of the old and new testament. it would take scientifically backed evidence and most likely a visit ,in person, by the almighty himself to persuede me otherwise. until then, i have to go with what i know.

thank you again for the b-day wishes!

[Rían]

You're very welcome!

Let me add a book to your "RÃ*an's recommended reads" list -The Case for Christ, by Lee Strobel. The author has a law degree from Yale University and worked as an investigative journalist on criminal cases (your area, IIRC ). The book opens with a fascinating review of an "open-and-shut" case (the defendant actually admitted to the killing) that turned out to be, with a little investigation, anything but "open-and-shut" (I won't give the details away, but he did NOT do the killing).

Here's some quotes from the introduction:

from The Case for Christ, by Lee Strobel
The reason I've recounted this unusual case is because in a way my spiritual journey has been a lot like my experience with James Dixon.

For much of my life I was a skeptic. In fact, I considered myself an atheist. To me, there was far too much evidence that God was merely a product of wishful thinking, of ancient mythology, of primitive superstition. How could there be a loving God if he consigned people to hell just for not believing in Him? How could miracles contravene the basic laws of nature? Didn't evolution satisfactorily explain how life originated? Doesn't scientific reasoning dispel belief in the supernatural?

As for Jesus, didn't you know that he never claimed to be God? He was a revolutionary, a sage, an iconoclastic Jew - but God? No, that thought never occurred to him! I could point you to plenty of university professors who said so - and certainly they could be trusted, couldn't they? Let's face it: even a cursory examination of the evidence demonstrates convincingly that Jesus had only been a human being just like you and me, although with unusual gifts of kindness and wisdom.

But that's all I had ever really given the evidence: a cursory look. I had read just enough philosophy and history to find support for my skepticism - a fact here, a scientific theory there, a pithy quote, a clever argument. Sure, I could see some gaps and inconsistencies, but I had a strong motivation to ignore then: a self-serving and immoral lifestyle that I would be compelled to abandon if I were ever to change my views and become a follower of Jesus.

As far as I was concerned, the case was closed. There was enough proof for me to rest easy with the conclusion that the divinity of Jesus was nothing more than the fanciful invention of superstitious people.

Or so I thought.

He then goes on to say that it was seeing the changes that took place in his wife, after she became a Christian, that made him want to re-open the "investigation" (and again, I'm so very sorry for all your family has gone through with your wife's illness and death - I'm more sorry than I can possibly express though typing ). I think, though, that you have seen some things in the Christians here on Entmoot that are a bit different and intriguing (in a good way ); have you not? Continuing from the book:

...so I launched an all-out investigation into the facts surrounding the case for Christianity.

Setting aside my self-interest and prejudices as best I could, I read books, interviewed experts, asked questions, analyzed history, explored archaeology, studied ancient literature, and for the first time in my life picked apart the Bible verse by verse.

I plunged into the case with more vigor than with any story I had ever pursued. I applied the training I had received at Yale Law School as well as my experience as legal affairs editor of the Chicago Tribune. And over time the evidence of the world - of history, of science, of philosophy, of psychology - began to point toward the unthinkable.....

In this quest for truth, I've used my experience as a legal affairs journalist to look at numerous categories of proof - eyewitness evidence, documentary evidence, corroborating evidence, rebuttal evidence, scientific evidence, psychological evidence, circumstancial evidence, and yes, even fingerprint evidence (that sounds intriguing, doesn't it?).

Then comes 14 chapters that go into the various evidences. You have a legal background - will you read this book?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

And from as well: a wish for a very Happy Birthday for Master Mothra! Have a great day!

[Lief Erikson]

And from me as well, happy birthday, MasterMothra!

Originally posted by MasterMothra
your reliance in god(jesus) as your lord and saviour is impressive to say the least.

Well, you want to know something MasterMothra? Although sometimes it can be tough to have faith in an invisible God, our reliance upon him isn't actually all that impressive. It might seem so to someone who doesn't believe in God, for they think the person is relying entirely upon personal belief. But in the Bible, you can see that the Christians of the early church have direct communion with God. When he answers the prayers of his people and leads them into righteousness through miraculous spiritual experience, one does tend to believe more easily.

Originally posted by MasterMothra
i have read over the bible many times as a christian and non-christian(for lack of a better word) but have found it lacking the necessary elements for me to seriously consider it as anything more than a nice read. i seriously doubt that i will change any of my opinions regarding this through further study of the old and new testament.

If RÃ*an, Gwaimir or I convinced you of Christianity's being on target by the eloquence of our words or arguments, we won't have accomplished very much. The primary use of your having become a Christian again would be that it might make it easier for you to find God, to put your faith in him. But you wouldn't be in any better a position than you were when you were a Christian before.

Coming to know Jesus is coming to know an interactive, powerful personality. It is coming to know a living being, not coming into a religion. The difference between Moses and the Pharisees (All of whom were 'believers') is profound, and it is obvious which God considered more holy.

Those who have become born again Christians through the Bible (like myself) have done so not because of the words of the book, but because of the voice that speaks through it. A voice I expect you have not heard yet, but which I hope you will.

it would take scientifically backed evidence and most likely a visit ,in person, by the almighty himself to persuede me otherwise. until then, i have to go with what i know.

By scientific evidence you're not going to find proof that God exists, though by studying the issue and reading the material available, you will find definite indicators.

A visit from the Almighty I think you're much more likely to receive, and that is what I'd encourage you to seek. Through prayer, would be best. If God is all powerful, he should be able to hear your prayer and respond to it. If you seek him, you will find him. The primary qualification, as I've told other people, is that you have to be serious about it and willing to keep at it for however long is necessary. For me, it took several months after I'd started praying before God had brought me to the point he wanted me to be at, and then he answered the prayer. For my Dad, it was the same day he offered the prayer.

If you do decide to seek God, please though, be careful not to imagine that you hear him. When you hear him, you'll know you have.

Once again, happy birthday! Have a good thirty second year!

[Starr Polish]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Coming to know Jesus is coming to know an interactive, powerful personality. It is coming to know a living being, not coming into a religion. The difference between Moses and the Pharisees (All of whom were 'believers') is profound, and it is obvious which God considered more holy.

Those who have become born again Christians through the Bible (like myself) have done so not because of the words of the book, but because of the voice that speaks through it. A voice I expect you have not heard yet, but which I hope you will.

This rings true for me as well. Up until I was fourteen I said I believed in God, but had never really felt Him, or heard Him. Then I hit the rocky patch, and didn't believe in Him. I still went to church with my friends, and I tried to pray. I was knocking at God's door, but I never got an answer. I did eventually truly hear the voice, as Lief puts it. That had to be the hardest night of my life, but also the best.

[Elvellyn]

I used to have some of the same problems Starr Polish did. I believed in God, I just didnt know Him. Then on day I realized how totally fake my "relationship" with God was. I started reading my Bible more and started praying with more purpose. Life has been so much richer.
Last year my sister went on a missions trip to Germany. I think it affected her as much as the people she witnessed to! We still dont get along perfectly, but Ive seen a change- I think she takes God alot more seriosly now.

[MasterMothra]

I think, though, that you have seen some things in the Christians here on Entmoot that are a bit different and intriguing (in a good way ); have you not?

yes i have rian. i find any debate on any subject to be possitive. i have found the "entmooters" show a willingness to discuss difficult topics and maintain a high degree of integrity at the same time. this is something most other boards lack, and a reason that i post here.

Let me add a book to your "RÃ*an's recommended reads" list -The Case for Christ, by Lee Strobel.

Then comes 14 chapters that go into the various evidences. You have a legal background - will you read this book?

i will read the book , rian. mainly because you recommended it and because i would like to read what the leading Evangelical apologists, including Craig Blomberg, Bruze Metzger, Edwin Yamauchi, Ben Witherington III, and William Lane Craig have to say. i am vaguely familiar with mr strobel's works, i have read essays concerning his conversion, but i do have serious reservations about mr strobels intentions, mainly the fact that it is not written from an objective point of view. by this i mean that mr. strobel was an atheist until 1981, but did not publish the book until 1998, after his conversion. mr. strobel also fails to interview any critics of Christian apologists. this would be considered a major deficiency if ones true desire is objective journalism. this act could be compared to a trial that only presents the prosecutions evidence and does not allow the defense a rebuttal.

could i also recommend a book? The Case Against Christianity by
Robert M. Price.

again, my sincere thanks for all the bday wishes.

[Rían]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
i will read the book , rian. mainly because you recommended it ...... could i also recommend a book? The Case Against Christianity by Robert M. Price.

Thank you very much, and I will try to pick up the Price book this weekend. Is it just coincidence that the titles are similar, or was it written as a response to Strobel's book?

i am vaguely familiar with mr strobel's works, i have read essays concerning his conversion, but i do have serious reservations about mr strobels intentions, mainly the fact that it is not written from an objective point of view. by this i mean that mr. strobel was an atheist until 1981, but did not publish the book until 1998, after his conversion. mr. strobel also fails to interview any critics of Christian apologists. this would be considered a major deficiency if ones true desire is objective journalism. this act could be compared to a trial that only presents the prosecutions evidence and does not allow the defense a rebuttal.

OK, counselor (that's what you call an attorney in a courtroom, isn't it? Please excuse my lack of knowledge in this area )does this mean that I should have serious reservations about Mr. Price's book, which I assume was written after he made an informed choice to believe that atheism or agnosticism was the correct worldview? (I'm assuming it's one of the 2, but it could be something else, too - but I assume it's NOT Christianity). And it is just as flagrantly titled! IOW, it is NOT "The Case for and against Christianity impartially evaluated"... Price apparently thinks there is a valid case against Christianity, just as Strobel thinks there is a valid case for Christianity.

Where have you read essays concerning his conversion? I'm rather curious...

And I think that he was not trying to present the topic as a trial, I think that his point was that he, personally, had ALREADY heard many things that appeared to point to Christianity being not true, and that it was a "closed case" in that regard. However, having observed significant and positive changes in a person who became a Christian, and having personal experience that what appears to be a "closed case" in one way may in actually turn out to be the other way, when the data is examined more carefully, he decided to investigate further into what he viewed as some of the major objections against Christianity. IOW, he had ALREADY heard one side (which he very briefly summarized in the intro), and he was now giving the other side a chance to both rebut and to offer evidence in their favor. The title IS, after all, the case for Christianity, which apparently he feels does not get equal time or exposure in the press or in daily conversation.

I think where his legal/journalistic background comes in is in things like skill in logical thinking, knowing what types of evidence are considered important, evaluating the validity of the evidence (is the source an expert? is that a valid inference, etc), knowing what follow-up questions to ask when presented with a new bit of info, etc.

I think the book is rather like one of those (for lack of a better example) "Jack the Ripper" books - some people think it was some doctor, some think it was a prince (can't recall the name - you can see how little this subject interests me!), some think it was some other person.... So a person that has uncovered evidence that he thinks points strongly to, say, the doctor, would write a book presenting the evidence. Their intent is not to deceive or be unfair; their intent is to present what they, to the best of their ability and based on impartial analysis of the evidence, believe to be true.

again, my sincere thanks for all the bday wishes.

You're very welcome , I hope it was nice and that you didn't eat too much cake!

[Elvellyn]

Lee Strobel has another book.. if the Case for Christ doesnt convince you.. its called the Case for Faith

[Amandil]

As a rule, books don't convince people...

...I'm not sure what does convince people!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I hope it was nice and that you didn't eat too much cake!

Isn't that what birthdays are for?

[Rían]

Yes!

but I hope he stopped just short of the up-all-night-with-a-stomachache-thinking-why-did-I-eat-this-much amount of eating cake!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Well, I suppose...