11-14-2002, 12:14 AM | #581 | ||
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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05-26-2003, 06:10 PM | #582 |
Elf Lord
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Okay, unfortunately my paste button isn't working at this particular second , so I can't respond to particular posts.
However, on evolution. I, along with Gwaimir, believe Micro evolution is a fact. There are evidences for it, such as the Burmingham Moth. The Burmingham Moth used to be white, and it was in England. Polution filled the atmosphere and the moths showed up against the blackness because of their white colors. Micro evolution took place, and they changed black, to avoid getting exterminated by predators. The Drosophila fly was taken to different surroundings and allowed to reproduce, and its offspring had two sets of wings in one environment, while in the other they had one set of wings. There are other, larger, examples. Now, Macro evolution I have a few problems with. I don't have too much trouble with its happening, but I see little point in it, and little possibility that it could happen. Evidence has shown that the environment changes extremely rapidly. I think you'll find I gave evidence for this on one of the previous pages most recent to this one. I'll find the place, soon. In any case, it is within a few thousand years that major changes happen, not over the millions of years necessary for Macro evolution to have serious affects. Large scale migration seems the only alternative to a Micro evolutionary view (Though as Micro evolution is as near proved as it can be, I see little reason to discard it), but there is little reason to believe that the environment's fast changes are only recent, and that it hasn't always been that way. Thus, Micro evolution seems to be the more logical view. Also, there is the lack of transitional species. If all the species were evolving at a Macro evolution speed rate, then I think the lack of transitional species would be illogical. The fits and bursts theory is the only way to get around that, but that's basically Micro evolution, not Macro. And it needs to be Micro to keep up with the environment. However, if Micro evolution is accepted as the primary replacement for Macro evolution (Whether you accept Macro evolution on a less important scale or not is irrelevant), then the lack of transitional species makes sense. It is true that there are some transitional species that are known of, like for the horse. The horse has a large amount of transitional species, though it is a rare example of creatures lacking the transitional species. The reason they are called transitional species is that there are species which have many, many specimens found of them, in different countries, even. There are hundreds or thousands of constructed skeletons of creatures from thousands of years ago. These are counted as species that aren't transitional, while it seems logical to call 'transitional' those species that there are very, very few of, and which fill in the gaps between one major species and its next evolutionary step that has large amounts of specimens. |
05-26-2003, 06:30 PM | #583 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Since this is a about whether evolution should be taught in school - I will answer that again.
Yes it should. Evolution is based on science - unlike creationsim which is based on a story in a book no one knows who wrote. Intelligent design is just creationists trying to fit a science into their estasblished beliefs that a god exists and created the universe. Again - it's not based on science - it's based on belief. Belief is not science and therefore should not be taught in schools. There is scientific evidence to support evolution - whether you agree with it or not.
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05-26-2003, 06:31 PM | #584 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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2) Aha. The fossil records INDICATES, not proves. 3) No reason for you to leave it. Just try to be a little more polite, maybe.
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05-26-2003, 06:35 PM | #585 |
Elf Lord
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Ruinel, if you're here, I wouldn't mind your posting that thing on the fossil method here, now .
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05-26-2003, 06:35 PM | #586 | ||
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 05-26-2003 at 06:37 PM. |
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05-26-2003, 06:37 PM | #587 | |
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There's lots of problems with this study, tho, including things like the faked pictures, and also that the moths are nocturnal, and naturally are in the treetops, not on trunks of trees, IIRC.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-26-2003, 06:43 PM | #588 |
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The black moth was the white moth; it changed because it was endangered. The black moth didn't already exist, they were white moths. It isn't one species getting replaced by a less prevalent species.
RÃ*an, I have one question for you. Why do you so strongly disbelieve evolution, anyway? What part of our beliefs does it threaten? Last edited by Lief Erikson : 05-26-2003 at 06:45 PM. |
05-26-2003, 06:45 PM | #589 | |
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05-26-2003, 06:47 PM | #590 |
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I'm curious. If I'm wrong in an aspect of my beliefs or outlook, I'd like to be corrected, but I don't think Genesis contradicts evolution. Last edited by Lief Erikson : 05-26-2003 at 06:48 PM. |
05-26-2003, 06:47 PM | #591 | |
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(2) - I disagree. The theory of evolution is based on a BELIEF that there is no intelligent being behind the process. The theory of creation by intelligent design is based on the BELIEF that there IS an intelligent being behind the process, and this being is behind the observable, measureable events and things that are out there. (3) - then don't teach evolution either. Or, what is really the best solution and the one with the most scientific integrity - teach the 2 most supported theories, both of which are based on an unproveable BELIEF but have testable tenets developed by intelligent scientists - the theory of creation by intelligent design (by far the best ) and the theory of evolution. (4) There is scientific evidence to support creation by intelligent design - whether you agree with it or not.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-26-2003, 06:53 PM | #592 | |
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05-26-2003, 06:53 PM | #593 | |
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My personal opinion is that creation by intelligent design fits the observable facts better, but I have NO problem with people that believe that evolution fits the facts better. My problem is when evolution people say that a scientist can't be scientific and believe that creation by intelligent design is a better model.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-26-2003, 06:55 PM | #594 | ||||||||
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Regarding transitional forms: that just not the way it works. We, as anthroplogists, are having a hard enough time piecing together the existences of the varying hominids, without actually having to worry about transitional fossils. Besides which, as I mentioned in the religion thread, Evolution is geared towards change, thus transitionals (individuals - see down below) are erroneous. I can't really get into this in more detail, otherwise, I think I'll have finished a dissertation by the time I've finished trying to explain! But I will add this: there are too many factors acting on organisms for there to be any ONE transitional. It would be more accurate to consider transitional phases, than it would be to consider transitional fossils. Quote:
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05-26-2003, 07:08 PM | #595 | |
Elf Lord
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Though I tend to view that as a whole species transformation, that the serpent represented the dinosaur. Because he said "you shall crawl on your belly and eat dust." For that to be a punishment, it must imply that it didn't crawl on its belly and eat dust in the past, which implied it was in a more upright position. In fact, the dinosaur perfectly fits that. I don't actually think that the dinosaur really evolved into current day reptiles, because of my Dad's studies, but in a way it did. And what it does show beyond a doubt is that God doesn't mind changing his creatures from one sort of creature to another. As is plainly proved by humans, as well. Aren't we born again? Changed into a totally new life . Different from evolution, of course, but once again, I see science as paralleling the Christian experience. Now, as far as evolution disproving intelligent design, I greatly agree with you. Evolution doesn't say whether or not a creator is pulling the strings of the universe and pushing everything into place in his perfect plan. |
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05-26-2003, 07:13 PM | #596 | |
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05-26-2003, 07:13 PM | #597 |
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Sheeana, would you mind responding to my first post today on this thread? The one that discusses Micro and Macro evolution and the environment. These discoveries also take into account the lack of transitional species.
And look, there SHOULD be transitional species, if we have so much on particular species, from various continents. They cannot possibly have evolved in a steady rate. Meanwhile, the recent discoveries on Micro evolution and swift environmental changes support each other strongly, and make it seem as though Macro evolution over a large scale, though possible, isn't very necessary. |
05-26-2003, 07:21 PM | #598 | |
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Meanwhile, my point was primarily to RÃ*an, that God plainly is willing to change his creatures. Last edited by Lief Erikson : 05-26-2003 at 07:22 PM. |
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05-26-2003, 07:23 PM | #599 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Though I personally don't like what's towards the end. Sounds a bit like Deism to me. So then, do you believe that man, made in the image of God, was originally a single-celled organism?
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05-26-2003, 07:41 PM | #600 |
Elf Lord
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Sorry if I came across as sounding like Deism at the end . That was a mistake.
We have another thing we must remember. That "death" really only started when man sinned, and separated himself from God. Mankind is dead without Jesus. It could be a spiritual death that was being spoken of. (Shrugs) Anyway, it isn't too serious an objection. Besides, you really have to believe that the Earth was created in seven literal days for it to be possible for pain and death to have not existed till man ate the fruit. None of the species before humanity could have existed if there was no death and no pain. And the 7 days is something that I object to being taken as literal days, simply because they aren't very Scripturally logical. It seems as though in this respect (pain and death), the simplest meaning is different. The creatures weren't separated from God, but the separation they chose for themselves was painful and caused them to spiritually die. This is a Biblical fact. Whether this death was being talked about, or physical death, is a matter of opinion. |
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