Iraq

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
*shakes head* JD your talking as though the invasion of Iraq is a fore-gone conclusion.......in fact your attitude seems to be that Iraq must be taken over whatever the odds.....

Well as it stands right now - Iraq has not been cooperating. Even though the weapons inspectors gave them a "B" in their report - which is laughable.

That is just unbelievable.....I've never posted with anyone with so little compassion for other's beliefs.......however misguided those beliefs are.

Whatever. If people KNOWINGLY put themseleves in danger - not to mention a war situation - then that is their choice. If a person knowingly go into Iraq to protest against the uS bombing - and they are taken hostage by Iraq - how much responsibilty does the US or anyone else have to try getting them out.

I have compassion for others beliefs - but their lives as far as I'm concerned is in their own hands at this point. They are ADULTS who have WILLINGLY gone into a war situation. They are NOT innocent civilians who happen to just be caught in the middle.

I'm sorry - I have no simpathy for them if they get killed - I care more about the innocent Iraqi civilians who have no choice.

Even more unbelievable........these are human lives your talking about, not sheafs of wheat in a field.

They have chosen to be there. They are human - but they have a responsibilty to protect themselves. If they want to give up their lives - then let them. I didn't see them in Iraq putting themselves in between the civilians and Saddam Hussein when he executes them. If they did that - then that would be protesting.

These people are peacefully protesting, they carry no guns...

These people can peacefully protest in London or Washington - that is fine. They are PUTTING themselves in the middle of a battlefield - DARING the US military to shoot them. Accidents are going to happen. War isn't pretty, but sometimes it is necessary in order to prevent a bigger problem later.

Ah well.....I'm seeing a whole new side of you JD......

I guess your seeing the fact that I think that people who willingly put themselves in this kind of situation - are responsible for themselves. Sacrificing your life for a cause you believe in is great. But if they purposely put themselves around military installations and known targets around Iraq and get killed - they have only themselves to blame.

[Coney]

Fair enough JD.....if that is the way you see the situation.

We're wandering into politcal and humanitarian ethics now.......not a subject(s) that wish to discuss with you *shrugs*

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
Fair enough JD.....if that is the way you see the situation.

We're wandering into politcal and humanitarian ethics now.......not a subject(s) that wish to discuss with you *shrugs*

That's fine. I just feel that when people make a decision they have to take responsibilty for their actions.

Limiting the casualities of the innocent Iraqi civilian population should be an important goal of the engagements. These people that are willingly going to Baghdad, have purposely put themselves into this situation. They're responsible for their own lives.

[Coney]

Limiting the casualities of the innocent Iraqi civilian population should be an important goal of the engagements.

I must presume that you the post where I said

Well, from the interview I saw today they state that they are going to be integrated with the civilian population.....they have had contacts in Bhagdad of several years.......were you under the impression that they would be stood at the gates of Bhagdad waving banners or something?

They are trying to ensure that no civilians are killed.......either Iraq' or western

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney

They are trying to ensure that no civilians are killed.......either Iraq' or western

That isn't their goal - if that was their goal they should have been in Baghdad while Saddam Hussein executes his own people. Ans if we don't attack - I hope they stay there and try keeping the Iraqi population safe from the madman.

The only reason they're going there is to try stopping the US from attacking.

And by the way - there is a good guy in this war. The west has a choice - either we allow Saddam Hussein to continue on the way he is going - or else we dismantle his regime and basically free the people of Iraq. He thinks nothing of putting his own people to death for them just looking at him wrong. He had his own two sons executed after luring them back into Iraq with promises that everything weas forgiven. His OWN two sons. Do you honestly think he cares about anyone?

By the way - the "peace" demonstrators aren't going to do anything to protect the Iraqi civilian populations - they're only going to be Hussein's pawns. I hope they get a first hand look at what it's like there. Hussein won't show them his jails though - they play the perfect propaganda tool for him by being on the outside.

[Coney]

Dubya must be so proud of you JD!

Thanks for clearing that up for me

The only reason they're going there is to try stopping the US from attacking.

Edit:.....oh and "The West" seems to be America and the UK v's Iraq at the moment....not exactly the greatest stand against "tyranny" and "oppresion" and the "threat of war" the world has ever known

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
Dubya must be so proud of you JD!

Thanks for clearing that up for me

I'm not sure if George Bush is proud or not - I don't know him and I've never talked or met him. But I support the attack on Iraq because the future will be much worse if we just bury our heads in the sand and hope the problem goes away. I believe Europe tried doing this with Germany and then they tried doing it with Bosnia. There are some countries - that will not negotiate. Iraq has repeatedly thumbed it's nose at the UN - and the world community has just sat there and let him. In all actuality if we had a president in the white house for the eight years prior to George Bush who actually took care of international affairs instead of getting bjs in the oval office - we would not have a lot of these problems today. Al Qaeda attacked US interests several times during the Clinton administration, when Iraq basically THREW OUT the previous weapons inspectors we should have gone in there. The Clinton administration also ignored North Korea, even though theythe administration was sure that they were not adhering to their agreements.

How much negotiation are we supposed to do? How many lies can Iraq tell before the world community says this is enough?

Do you honestly believe that he'll collect weaponry and NOT use it in some form or another? And what happens to the Middle East if he is the most powerful country there?

Iraq has been getting weapons in the past 4 years - without the world doing anything about it. The UN is made up of a bunch of people who think that the only thing to do is talk and if that doesn't work then you just throw up your hands and say "Well we tried." They reprimand governments and issue proclamations which have absolutely no affect.

It is funny though. I don't see any of these "peace activists" taking buses into North Korea to protect the people there from their own government. Or into the many African countries where war lords rule. If they stood up for that stuff and took action against those counties - then I'd repsect them a little more. Basically it seems as if most of these people are just anti-west but they know that life sucks in the other counties and don't have the balls to actually stick their necks out when it comes to dealing with the real evil in this world (Iraq, Korea). They'd rather hide behind the freedoms we enjoy and criticise the west. Never see them demonstrating again suicide bombers who kill innocent woman and children. Who drove a bus to Bali?

[wahine]

Most countries in the Middle East publicly oppose a unilateral US war on Iraq, but many are expected it ascuiece to one if it comes to that.

Turkey
Ankara is worried that postwar instability in Iraq would provoke Iraqi Kurds to assert their independence, thereby inciting Turkish Kurds to follow suit.
Still, Turkey has strong historical ties with the US and counts on Washingtons backionf for further IMF assistance.
The pro-islamic government would probably allow the US to use some air bases and would support special forces en route to Iraq.

Iran
Like Turkey, Iran is apprehensive about postwar restivness in its Kurdish population, it also dislikes the idea of postwar pro-American government acrossed its border.
But, Iran fought Iraq in a bitter war between '80 and '88, and would happily watch Saddam Hussein fall.
A defanged Irag would also make Iran the undisputed kingpin of the gulf.
Tehran would conceivable allow the launch of search and rescue missions as it did during the war against Afghanistan.

Israel
Israel is more than likely to be targeted by Iraq in the event of war, still the government firmly supports the US action against Iraq, whose missiles, potentially tipped with "weapons of mass destruction", threaten Israel.
Israel has already had scouts inside the western border of Iraq doind pre-war reconnaissence. Israeli intelligence forces woulf work closely with the US during the war.

*OOC: Don't you just love the sound of that? Weapons of Mass Destruction! KABOOM! I'm going to name my next dog that.*

Egypt
The government frets that a US strike against an Arab nation would incite unrest among a public already angry at the US for its support of Israel, but as other Arab countries, they loathe Saddam.
Because the US supplies Egypt with $2 billion in aid a year, it can probably be counted on the have overflight rights, and use of the Suez Canal for warships and supply boats.

Saudi Arabia
Riyadh fears that a war would anger citizens because of the royal families ties to the US. As first reported on time.com the Saudis are encouraging a coup against Saddam. If war comes they may still refuse to permit launch of US ground troops or Air Force combat missions, though both were permitted in '91.
The Saudis are likely, however, to allow US command and control functions special-op missions and refueling.

Kuwait
The Kuwaiti government is still seething over Saddams '90 invasion and occupation of it's lands it says it will not take part in "war drum beating".
Still it hosts a variety of US military installations and have given the US virtual carte blanche to use its territory.

Bahrain
The government is rather sensitive to a war against an Islamic country at this time while the king is trying the heal civil strife against to sets of Muslims which occupy the nation. Yet Bahrain fears Iraq.
As host to headquarters of the US naval Fifth Fleet, Bahrain is not expected to actively oppose the US action.

Qatar
This government is set on building strong ties to the US to protect the tine emirate from regional powers, specifically Iraq and Iran.
Qatar has agreed to let the US use its al-Udeud facility as a US air base, command and control center.

U.A.E
the UAE is concerned that instability in the gulf could slow its rapid economic development.
Yet, if war is emminent *imminent?* the UAE, who already extends military basing to the US and Britain aren't likely to put up a fuss.

Oman
Oman like most of the other nations fear public opinion, but like the UAE it plays host to both the US and Britain, and will likely give the permission for their use in a war with Iraq.

Jordan
Will do nothing actively to help the US, it seems, but privately wishes for the US to get on with the war.

Syria
Damascus, is again worried about Kurdish rebellions, in addition the government is reluctant for US influence to grow in their region.
Like Jordan it will not contribute troops to the US as it did in '91 but it isn't admantly opposing the war either.

Yemen
Yemen voted against the war in '91 and the US cut Yemens entire 70 million dollar aid program. Yemen has no intention of making a fuss with Washington and will likely allow US ships the refuel at ports and US planes to fly over terrain.

Kyrgyzstan *bless you*
Officially opposes the war.

Uzbekistan
This government has pledged support to the US's war.

Hope you enjoyed this because my fingers are killing me.

(For entire article, not paraphrased, and using bigger fancicer words see Time)

[Coney]

Hope you enjoyed this

I did, very interesting .. thanks

because my fingers are killing me.

It was worth it

[wahine]

Thanks.



Okay, you are from Britain Coney, and I really haven't read anything on British views of America's war against Iraq.

I also haven't read most of this thread!

So what, as far as you can tell, is the views of Parliament and the public on...the war...thing.

*Edit: mispellings.*

[Coney]

So what, as far as you can tell, is the views of Parliament and the public on...the war...thing.

$64,000 dollar question there!

To give you the simplest answer....

Tony Blair wants to back America..........most of his own cabinet, never mind the opposition, don't. Blair is making nearly as many please to his own followers as Powell is making to the UN

As regards to public opinion: Roughly 80% of the British public disagree with war against Iraq without clear, firm evidence that they own/are manufacturing WMD.

[wahine]

I personally think we've gotten to be warmongers.


But to be frank, so is Insani (errrr...husseini...without the I)

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by wahine
I personally think we've gotten to be warmongers.

I disagree. We're finishing a job that should have been finished along time ago. The world community including the UN should not have just accepted Hussein kicking out the inspectors in the first place. That was the agrrement for the cease fire - so in all actuality - since he violated the cease fire terms - the Gulf War never actually ended.

The only reason he let the inspectors in now - is because the US massed troops. Before that he kept saying how there was no way he was going to let in the inspectors. The UN wasn't even going to force the issue on inspectors until the US made it clear to them that they're going to do something or we will.

It is also a known fact that Al Qaeda is hiding out in northern Iraq - with Saddam Husseins blessing. They're making life difficult for the Kurds and have training camps. Hussein's not stupid though - he won't openly support them, but at the same time he is harboring them. Maybe you forgot about the great big hole in lower Manhattan.

[Coney]

It is also a known fact that Al Qaeda is hiding out in northern Iraq - with Saddam Husseins blessing.

It is?.......I've never seen/read this in the news

Do you have a link to a news-site pls?

[wahine]

Oh good lord, more 9-11 talk.

I am sick of hearing about it. It was terrible. Move On.

*laughs* anyway.

I know this is going to seem either simplistic or barbaric, but lets nuke them. NUKE 'EM ALL!

[Coney]

Originally posted by wahine
I know this is going to seem either simplistic or barbaric, but lets nuke them. NUKE 'EM ALL!

LOL

America can't nuke Iraq!

It would destroy the oil fields

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by wahine
Oh good lord, more 9-11 talk.

I am sick of hearing about it. It was terrible. Move On.

Where do you live? That might be why you're able to move on.

Kurds’ Foe May Have Al Qaeda Ties

Nov. 23 — In the mountains that form the border between Kurdish territory and Iran, Kurdish soldiers are fighting a group they say is yet another American enemy — Ansar al-Islam, or "supporters of Islam," a radical militant fundamentalist organization the U.S. government suspects is directly linked to al Qaeda.

"These groups are mainly dangerous because many people from Afghanistan came to the area," said Jalal Talabani, president of a Kurdish Iraqi opposition group, Patriotic Union of Kurdistan. "More than 120 Arabs, Afghan Arabs, came from Afghanistan to the area. And they are supported by the al Qaeda all over the world. They are financed by them."

The group, also known as al-Ansar, is believed to be responsible for a rash of assassinations, kidnappings and guerrilla attacks on Kurds.

The only safe way to travel to the front lines where al-Ansar is active is by military convoy, Kurdish forces opposing them say. The same mountains that have protected Kurdish territories from invasion for centuries now protect al-Ansar. The Kurds jokingly call the area "little Tora Bora."

With little ammunition, the action has dwindled to a few daily potshots, with an occasional mortar shell coming uncomfortably close. So far, Ansar al-Islam has hung on tenaciously, trying to install Taliban-like rules in the villages it controls.

"The women should be fully veiled even at home," says Gen. Ramazan Dekhone of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, "and the men must wear beards."

The Kurdish soldiers say such extremism is new to their region and will not be tolerated.

Kurdish officials say they're close to ridding these mountains of the al-Ansar threat. They want to concentrate on preparing their soldiers for the almost inevitable war with Saddam Hussein, and don't want to be fighting on two fronts.

They say the connection with al Qaeda in their own back yard gives them one more thing in common with the United States. After last year's Sept. 11 attacks, they say, all Americans and Kurds are now related by blood.

There have been many articles, news casts, etc about Al Qaeda being in northern Iraq.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
LOL

America can't nuke Iraq!

It would destroy the oil fields

Hate to tell you this but Europe gets the majority of it's oil from the Middle East. The US only gets a fraction of our from there. So it would hurt you far more than it would hurt us. But in all actuality - it would hurt the world's economy greatly.

[Coney]

U.S. government suspects is directly linked to al Qaeda.

uh huh

Spot the key-word there

If Al Qeada are actually being sheltered in northern Iraq......why are is North America waiting for justification for the invasion......didn't the US declare war on Al Qeada and it's allies already??

[Coney]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Hate to tell you this but Europe gets the majority of it's oil from the Middle East. The US only gets a fraction of our from there. So it would hurt you far more than it would hurt us. But in all actuality - it would hurt the world's economy greatly.

Not as much as it would hurt France and Russia (BP british petrolium..can supply the UK with oil and gas for the next 60oddyrs, if needs be)......oh and of course that would directly effect NATO (did they ever answer the US' request for aid against Iraq?...I forget)

it would hurt the world's economy greatly.

I agree.......trade defecit's around the world are in a dreadful state......falling all the time......shocking and such a shame .