02-10-2006, 03:51 PM | #581 | ||
Quasi Evil
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As Gaffer said: Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 02-10-2006 at 03:56 PM. |
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02-10-2006, 03:55 PM | #582 | |
Quasi Evil
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If a christian tells me that fighting and warring is against christian ideals I wouldnt have the pretentious audacity to tell them "no actually you DONT think that. According to your bible its ok to take an eye for an eye so THATS how you think..."
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-10-2006, 04:01 PM | #583 | |
Quasi Evil
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Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-10-2006, 04:08 PM | #584 | ||
An enigma in a conundrum
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b) Christian words: "blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my accoount. Rejoice and be glad for your reward is great in heaven" Qur'an 2:191 "and slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out for persecution is worse than slaughter" Now before you say the instances mentioned are different; look at the overall attitude of the teachings; one is more forgiving than the other.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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02-10-2006, 04:19 PM | #585 |
Elf Lord
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In my post above, I never said that all of these people have been engaged in violence, though I can easily understand how I came across that way. Sorry about that misunderstanding.
You know that the violence extends beyond the embassy burning and the odd death, however. Denmark has had to pull its citizens out of many countries because of death threats and risk of violence. I disagree with you about this violence being against he ideals of Islam. I think it was completely in accord with the ideals of Islam, and I also believe Muhammad was essentially a terrorist. He had some good ethical teachings for sure, but looking at the history of his actions and the actions of his immediate followers, that is what appears. In spite of this, I strongly feel that it was very poor of Denmark and the European nations to disrespect Muslims through these cartoons. Sorry I don't have time to do more with this post.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
02-10-2006, 04:19 PM | #586 |
Elf Lord
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Yeah, funny how none of the knee-jerk brigade have addressed the issue I raised.
Also funny how many of them are experts in Islam. Last edited by The Gaffer : 02-10-2006 at 04:21 PM. |
02-10-2006, 04:34 PM | #587 | |||
Quasi Evil
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How bout instead you just ask the muslims what THEY think instead of saying it doesn’t matter what the muslim thinks. They don’t know their own religion.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-10-2006, 04:43 PM | #588 | |||
An enigma in a conundrum
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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02-10-2006, 04:52 PM | #589 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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paraphrasing Tom Bombadil
"I will not pass the borders. I have my house to mind and Goldberry is waiting".
see you all on the morrow
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
02-10-2006, 06:41 PM | #590 | |
Quasi Evil
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Hey Spock. When did you get your doctorate in Islamic theology exactly? Im curious to know. I find it interesting you can tell me categorically that millions of Muslims are living their religion wrong when you dont even follow it yourself.
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The fact is that its impossible to live to the last letter in either the bible OR the koran. Choices will always need to be made based on interpretation because too many things can be interpreted in too many different ways. To say the Koran is completely rigid and uninterpretable is a joke.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-10-2006, 07:24 PM | #591 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-10-2006, 07:53 PM | #592 | ||||
Elf Lord
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Gaffer, I don't know just who your knee-jerk team is, and would rather not know, but I'll respond to the issue you raised.
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Attacking Afghanistan also was important to our national security. The Taliban was blatantly supporting Osama Bin Laden. The invasion of Iraq, while incorrect about the WMDs, has toppled a wicked regime and brought unprecedented freedom to the people of Iraq. The situation there has also not spiraled out of control as doom-sayers have been predicting. Anyhow, I don't see these attacks as worsening the situation. Sure, our attack on Iraq is viewed badly in the Arab world, but this will change when we pull out and leave a stable democracy and a functioning government and state behind. Already, during the Bush Administration, there has been unprecedented democratic reform in the Middle East. Libya has experienced greatly increased freedom, as have the Palestinian territories. Iraq has experienced a great deal of freedom, and Lebanon also has thrown off an oppressor to gain freedom. Well, I think force is sometimes effective. Other times, verbal or physical attack can be bad. I strongly disapprove of France's threat of using nuclear weapons against any country that supports terrorists that attack it. I also am disgusted with these papers that are publishing these cartoons. The cartoons serve no purpose except to polarize the East and the West more fully against one another. So I basically agree with your main point, that we would do well to understand that not every Muslim is a terrorist and we shouldn't paint the East in broad brushstrokes, just as they shouldn't paint the West that way. I disagree with you that attack is always wrong, and I approve of some of the uses of force that the West has been using. I can understand how the Muslims would see our actions differently, of course. To them, our invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan aren't about self defense but about imperialism and exploitation. They're about a crusade against the Muslim world. Anyway . . . I think we're for the most part in agreement.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-10-2006, 08:20 PM | #593 |
Elf Lord
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Thanks, Lief; I appreciate your taking the time to address the issue. I think we disagree about the use of force in the case of Iraq, and Afghanistan. The major winner in all of it, politically, has been Iran, and the more fundamentalist brand of Islam. I would also take issue with your interpretation of other events. However, that's not what this thread is about.
Unfortunately, we DO need to think about it, because it is all too obvious that many people find it impossible to tell the difference between comprehension and approval. In fact, it is something I see again and again and again coming from the Right on all manner of issues. Last edited by The Gaffer : 02-10-2006 at 08:23 PM. |
02-10-2006, 09:51 PM | #594 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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As Lief said, it's a no-brainer (or looking back, he said, "Makes sense. No need to think about it." ) Of course comprehension is not equal to agreement or approval. What's your point about it? I would imagine that you comprehend many things about other cultures, and you agree/approve with some aspects and disagree/disapprove with other aspects, just like I do. So? What's the point?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 02-10-2006 at 09:52 PM. |
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02-10-2006, 09:54 PM | #595 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
(note - I do NOT say ALL Muslims)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-10-2006, 09:56 PM | #596 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
(ps - Spock, what happened to YOUR avatar? Is there some avatar yin/yang thing going on that Lief's new avvy disturbed, so yours disappeared? )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 02-10-2006 at 09:57 PM. |
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02-10-2006, 11:07 PM | #597 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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"Originally Posted by The Gaffer Just because a person is capable of understanding: 1) another point of view and 2) that different cultures exist does not mean that he agrees with them. I'll say it again: comprehension is not equal to agreement nor approval. Does that make sense? Take a moment to think about it. " This is NOT a "no brainer;" if it were, we wouldn't have a fraction of the problems that we have in this world, now would we? Although I must say, it isn't limiited to the "Right," it is universal.
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02-11-2006, 12:11 PM | #598 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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We shall continue our discourse on Muslims and Islam here.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
02-11-2006, 12:11 PM | #599 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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I think we have wandered far off topic on this thread. There is a topic "Muslims" where most of these posts belong.
Please, for the 3rd time, post in that thread. This was/is about the Norweigan problem and while connected, the discourse herein contained is far and away from that subject. Temporarily closing this thread to give everyone time to cool down. The Muslim topic thread remains open.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
02-11-2006, 12:27 PM | #600 | |||
Elf Lord
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But you're right that unfortunately, what should be a no-brainer is not always a no-brainer. People on both sides attempt to tar the other platform, and we ordinary Americans are guilty of doing the same thing, all too often. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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