09-04-2005, 01:40 PM | #581 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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Perhaps I should forgive him on a personal level. However, that doesn't mean I would be doing right to just leave God to judge. God expects people to reject injustice and immorality, and in my opinion, to fight against them. He expects us to engage in active war against evil, not to just forgive it. Forgiving it can be part of fighting it, for it is not allowing the evil to control you personally. However, it is not the end. Christ came to bring justice to the oppressed (I think that's scriptural), and the responsibility is on us as well. Remember that when the Christ encountered oppressors, he was not gentle. He saw Pharisees and teachers of the Law that were weighing people down unjustly, and in righteous anger Christ spoke out boldly against them. He did the uncomfortable thing, and he was an example for those that follow. The same bold attitude filled the disciples after Pentecost. I know you can argue, "from a Christian standpoint Christ was God, so of course he can speak up against people." He was also an example, my friend. I think that it is clearly part of our duty as Christians to face evil and fight it. It is part of who we are. This definitely is not usually a violent war. It is a spiritual war. However, sometimes violent war also becomes necessary in order to free the oppressed, and in order to protect our lives and the lives of those we love. Quote:
There's one critical thing I think you lack in your understanding of Christianity. God is a Lord of justice as well as forgiveness. He isn't leaving the world to injustice either, until the Last Day. Instead, he brings justice here and now. Through his followers too, he brings justice. According to scripture, we have been made co-creators with God. We are made one with him also, as he enters us. "See, the Spirit of the Lord is on me . . . to bring justice to the widows and oppressed . . ." In my opinion, if I just saw Saddam Hussein torturing people and did nothing, I would be guilty before God. I might forgive him for myself, but I will fight against him in the flesh so that evil might be stopped and goodness may prevail. The willingness to fight evil that exists is something God wants everyone to be ready to do.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-04-2005, 02:27 PM | #582 | |||||
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God will judge everyone for all they have committed. He will do this on the Last Day. Until then, he often judges even here and now. He might bring a disaster upon a community sometimes as a form of judgment, or a series of rough experiences in life to discipline an individual for his or her own good. He does not always do this, but does it at his own discretion. We also will act in justice at our own discretion. Forgiveness must be bound to justice. However, as the Apostle Paul said, "If your brother sins, rebuke him. If he repents, forgive him." The rebuke that he spoke of, the rebuke that Jesus issue toward the Pharisees, the blow that must sometimes be struck, is a part of Christianity. Justice as well as forgiveness. We will be counted guilty if we see oppression and do not fight it, if we see to evil and do not wage war against it. There is to be no quarter given to evil. We are expected to fight in the spiritual and physical realms. If I see evil done by a spirit, I banish the spirit. If I see evil done by a person, I rebuke the person and take a stand against him. If I ignore evil, or just forgive it everywhere, and thus allow it to rampage everything, I am stupid and, in my opinion, guilty. A stand against evil must be taken. Occasionally, killing needs be part of that stand. Quote:
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This is one of the reasons why our war is "not against flesh and blood," but against the spirits. Christians seek to overcome evil with good. People's state of deception can be revealed and purged by God's Holy Spirit, the "Sword of the Spirit" that God gives us. Occasionally, however, evil in the physical too must be fought. This is clearly scriptural. "Judge not, or you will be judged," means God expects you to forgive those that sin against you. It does not mean you are to permit everyone who sins against others to keep right on sinning. Those that are unrepentant must sometimes be violently resisted. That is self defense, and again is a model that is plain to see in scripture. God continually offered people the chance to repent, and when they showed themselves utterly unwilling, he violently fought them. Paul did the same. Christians were cast out of the church if they were repeatedly warned against their sin yet refused to heed the rebuke. Evil is to be fought in this life. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-05-2005, 02:47 PM | #583 |
Elf Lord
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again, Lief .... shorter than i envisaged ...
where to start? well of course i cannot reply to all or even just some of it just now ... but one thing immediately springs to mind, if i cut down my replies by even a third... you'd have plenty of time for the occasional RPG post! will have a go either later tonight or maybe tommorow. best BB |
09-06-2005, 02:33 AM | #584 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-06-2005, 02:33 AM | #585 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-06-2005, 02:43 AM | #586 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Then I will, if it's OK with BB
(prob. can't do a whole lot, because school and the candy sale are starting up, but I"ll try to keep up with things)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
09-06-2005, 02:46 AM | #587 |
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Don't worry, this discussion is moving pretty slowly. Butterbeer often takes a couple days between his responses, and I've got college to deal with.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
09-06-2005, 02:48 AM | #588 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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ok - nothing wrong with a slow discussion (within reason) - gives one time to do some "back-burner" thinking... I'll try to catch up on the thread over the next day or two.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
09-06-2005, 05:45 PM | #589 | ||||||||
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Rian:
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...many thanks Lief for your PM! ... but you don't get off that lightly ... yet! before i begin the marathon response to Lief .... what is your upbringing with regard, Rian, to "thou shalt not kill" or "thou shalt not murder" ? (and no conferring please! ) ............ Quote:
previous BB post: but did not jesus say " i will judge all" (or my father etc) : i.e. it is not for us to pick and mix which core ,oral techings to adhere to or to disregard Lief response: Quote:
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But in conjunction with the above point of God judging all and with the agreed "revenge is no way accepatable to the lord" ... if we take the moral authority onto ourselves to judge and act in response to a crime commited by punitive response it is a form of revenge ... where is the line between justice and revenge and how do we then define it? Lief: Quote:
really Lief .. i really think this is hard to defend with any moral authority... a co-erced innocent or cog in the wheel of evil who is otherwise themselves oppressed yet directly or indirectly is "aiding their war cause" ... i can think of no better words than a simple ... ??? Lief: Quote:
How can a choice between evils be a good or a moral, or good thing before God .... if it is evil, it is evil .... surely God does not ask us in any shape, way or form to do, or condone evil .... you yourself say that we have a responsibility to fight evil ... therefore if evil, being the lesser of evils (but still undisputably evil) is done in our name or on our behalf, or by us or by our leaders ... it is evil and therefore our responsibility to fight it and not merely as shepherdless sheep follow it .... or attempt thereby to condone it? ... you appreciate i am talking perhaps more philosophically than practically here, i hope well, there's my selective reply so far! beware Lief: will Pm you ref rpg soon .... very best BB |
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09-06-2005, 07:57 PM | #590 | ||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-06-2005, 11:37 PM | #591 | ||||
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War is sometimes justified and sometimes not. Sometimes a war is completely wrong. It might be greedy and selfish. Other times it can be like the American attack on Iraq- a war done in order to protect our country (we thought there were WMDs there), save the helpless (those brutalized by Saddam), and spread democracy (freedom) in the region. Sometimes war is justified. Other times it isn't. I have one point I will make regarding your issues with us "making our own decisions" about killing people, and "using our own standards." People who have been filled with the Spirit can see where the Spirit leads. Sometimes the Spirit reveals things about the Bible to the believer. Sometimes He guides us in interpretation. Given this, and the fact that God lives inside his followers, they are (in my view) better equipped to make judgments regarding morality than are non-believers. Therefore it isn't only their own discernment and judgment (though if they have nothing other than that, they need to use it) to do what's right to the best of their ability. They have God there to help them. So that's just one more Christian theological point I thought I'd throw into the discussion. Quote:
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Therefore, law and justice are defensive as well. Quote:
Let me give an example to illustrate my point. I'll give more like this later . Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait with an enormous military machine. Hundreds of thousands of people, mostly drafted, mostly with no desire at all to be where they were. Nonetheless, they would do as they were told. Their families were threatened, many of them. These were innocents, yet they also were soldiers who would shoot to kill us. We bombed them. If we had refused to kill them, Kuwait could not have been saved. We killed tens of thousands of innocents, and saved a country from brutal oppression. It was a horrible thing we did, but it also was necessary. I think that frequently in wars there are good people on both sides. Almost every single time there is a war, good people on both sides die. I would say a significant exception would be Joshua's invasion of Canaan, and the Godly war against man in Revelation will also be like this. It's a very nasty business. War is always horrible. It also is occasionally necessary. We do the best to be as moral as possible in the course of the war, but we know that some immorality will take place even if we don't want it to.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-06-2005, 11:53 PM | #592 | |
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I think slaughters of people that are aiding a war effort can sometimes be justified, for they really are just as much enemies as the soldiers you fight. Soldiers have guns in their hands, but civilians with bread or dollars can be just as much dangerous enemies. Sometimes without defeating the civilian population, you cannot win the war. It's very, very ugly, but many of these civilians aren't really innocent (they are helping the war effort, whether they want to or not, and therefore provided your cause is just they are doing evil, even if unwillingly), and for those that are, you can't really help it. We had to go into Kuwait. Think what a precedent it would be if Saddam were allowed to get away with rejecting international law, plundering an innocent and helpless nation, and seizing control of much of the world's oil supply! We had to stop him. We had to kill some innocent people in order to establish justice too. In the same way, look at courts. Courts are set up in order to bring justice, but inevitably they will make some mistakes. Some innocents will be judged improperly. Does this make the court system evil? I don't really think so. Does the killing of innocents in the Gulf War make that war evil? I don't really think so. But if we had let Saddam get away with it, that would have been evil.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-07-2005, 05:12 AM | #593 | |
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just a quick one, for now
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sorry, couldn't resist. Hope BM does not see this post! ...mind you will reply in more depth later: i guess i am talking more philosophically then real life examples in the main .... Rian: sorry, i meant specifically were you taught of the commandments "thou shall not kill" or were you taught that it was "thou shalt not murder" ? |
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09-07-2005, 01:25 PM | #594 |
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I've always understood that particular commandment to be killing in the sense of murder, and I think the context and a common-sense reading support this, as well as the language (as Radagast the Brown, our resident Israeli, informed us).
And then Jesus upped the bar when he said that even if you are angry with someone (i.e., selfish anger) or insult them, that you're just as guilty. (Matthew chpt 5)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
09-07-2005, 04:35 PM | #595 |
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o.k. but perhaps i need to be clear here: it's as much about the the actual words themselves exactly i am asking
were you taught as a kid etc the commandments, word for word as "thou shalt not kill" or "thou shalt not murder" ? ... we'll move on the ideas behind them in a mo' .. best BB |
09-07-2005, 07:15 PM | #596 | |||
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as i understand it God is (potentially) in all of us and works through us sometimes... but would it not be more accurate to say "the spirit reveals things about God" rather than "reveals things about the Bible"? unless that person cannot read? But even then the bible is there to attempt to portary god's will not god being there to justify the bible! Quote:
again, i can see what you are saying, but all people are different, some better at making judgments than others ... just because they are of a certain denomination does not make them automatically a better judge or morally superior. Quote:
when he spoke of murder, surely he spoke of murder. Else on an important teaching like this he would have said anger specifically, no? yes, the way you put it, more reasonable, but ultimately right? Are you sure? To be honest killing through love and defense of others close to you does seem on a personal level another thing .. but to me the question then is, ulitmately this may be o.k. if you forgive yourself, if you in your heart of hearts and your soul truly feel it was the right thing to do ... but to take this to another widespread impersonal level where we justify killing of innocents, or the opressed or the innocent opressed, including children, because they are oppreseed and indirectly in any shape or form helping our enemies... i cannot beleive that the Lord thinks this is a morally good thing. |
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09-08-2005, 01:22 AM | #597 | ||||
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In the epistles, I think the author of Hebrews talks about a veil being over our eyes when we read the scripture, until through the Spirit that veil is lifted. That happens in the Born Again experience, I think. Though the Lord isn't bound by that; occasionally I expect he will open up people's minds to the scripture before that. Quote:
Of course these people are still flawed. They are still imperfect. They still make plenty of mistakes. But I still think that they have a better moral vantage point, having experienced Christ's transforming power, than most non-Christians do. Quote:
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I am advocate fighting war as humanely as we possibly can. I hate the fact that in war we cannot just hit those responsible all the time, but will, even though we don't want to, kill people who are innocent and oppressed. War is horribly ugly, but if you refuse to let there be any chance at all of your killing innocents, you have to just not fight. You have to just let your enemy overrun you. What, in your opinion, makes killing through love and defense of others close to you better than killing in defense of your country?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-08-2005, 07:25 PM | #598 |
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Bump.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
09-08-2005, 08:34 PM | #599 |
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bumps into your bump, and apologizes for not looking where i was going and being too involved elsewhere ... *glint in eye as he does a jaunty wink about the elsewhere bit... *
... one very quick thing ... did a little quick research ... very depressing ... lots of "wrong translation ... kill is murder stuff!" ... best BB ... till next time |
09-08-2005, 09:18 PM | #600 | |
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As far as I remember, the words that I learned in my younger days were "thou shalt not kill", but to me, it was very clear that it was what we would call today "murder", since God clearly authorized wars (which means killing ) against people like the followers of Moloch, who were fond of infant sacrifice... they did terrible, terrible things with babies, as historians note. I'm not trying to be clever with words or anything - I clearly understood "kill" to be in the sense of "killing with personal, selfish motives".
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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