The non-existing finger

[Melko Belcha]

Many of these quotes have been posted, but this is all the quotes I have found that shows Sauron had a physical form at the time of LotR.

TTT - The Black Gate is Closed
'Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,' said Gollum

LotR - Apendix B
2060 - The power of Dol Guldur grows. The Wise fear that it may be Sauron taking shape again.

The Sil - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.

The Sil - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Úlairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand; and he seeks ever for news of the One, and of the Heirs of Isildur, if they live still on earth.'

The Letters of JRR Tolkien - #200
After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long time to rebuild, longer than he had done after the fall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of rebuilding after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book.

Letters - #246
In the contest with the Palantir Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanor and countenance.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Yes. The 'eye of Sauron', while appearing in the books, is a metaphor. In the Third Age Sauron took the form of a tall man robed in black.

I too think the eye to be a metaphor. Saruman is referred to several times in the book as the White Hand (capitalized) just as Sauron is referred to as the Great Eye (also capitalized). Both metaphors also double as their emblems which appear on shields and armor. Tolkien also endows the “Eye� with emotions with phrases such as “the malice of the Great Eye�. If the eye is something he’s made or conjured I don’t see how it could contain feelings and/or conscious thought. It really only makes sense as a metaphor in my opinion.


I think what Frodo sees in the mirror IS Sauron’s eye.

“The Eye was rimmed with fire, but was itself glazed, yellow as a cat’s�

I think the fire is part of the mirror’s montage of images and it is surrounding the rim of the basin (Galdadriel’s circular mirror) like a border while Frodo sees the eye, but it is not part of the eye itself. That is why the next phrase “but was itself� seems to draw a distinction between the “border� of fire and the vision of the eye.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Ulmo
The seventh stone whose fate has not been correctly stated here was Elendil's Stone of Elostirion, the tallest of the towers of Emyn Beraid that Gil-galad built for Elendil (referred to as The White Towers above). This was a special stone, for it only looked West to the Sea and could not be used for communication the way the other stones were. Elendil used it to look West over the Sea:



What happened to this stone? The Encyclopedia of Arda says that it left Middle-earth with Gandalf and company, though I've not been able to find this reference. Should I find it (or any other clues to its fate), I'll post it here later. Cirdan and the Elves of Lindon certainly kept watch over it - it either left Middle-earth with them (if not Gandalf) or was returned to the King of Arnor.

HA! I knew I was correct about a stone being set. It was actually set in the Tower Hills and it was taken by Cirdan upon the last ship. Here is the quote:

From the Appendices; Appendix A, p. 1018 note 2:

These were the Stones of Annúminas and Amon Sûl. The only Stone left in the Noth was the one in the Tower on Emyn Beraid (aka on the Tower Hills, the stone was known as The Stone of Elostirion) that looks towards the Gulf of Lune. That was guarded by the Elves, and though we never knew it, it remained there, until CÃ*rdan put it aboard Elrond's ship when he left (pp. 44, 106). But we are told that it was unlike the others and not in accord with them; it looked only to the Sea. Elendil set it there so that he could look back with 'straight sight' and see Eressëa in the vanished West; but the bent seas below covered Númenor for ever.

[Ulmo]

it remained there, until CÃ*rdan put it aboard Elrond's ship when he left

There it is! I was looking all over. Thanks. Not taken by Cirdan on the last ship, but on the Ringbearers' ship (there were still more to leave).

[Nurvingiel]

"Now where did I leave that palantir? Ah, there it is, right beside my keys."
- potentially said by Ulmo

[Bombadillo]

Sauron "poured his evil into the Ring," according to Tolkien. I never did know how literally that should be taken, but I'd think that it garantees an undying connection between Sauron and his One Ring. And since his spirit still existed after his death, he was still alive in the Ring as well. This connection was obvious because, well, destroy the Ring and destroy Sauron.

So to me it would seem that a finger is unnecassary.


A little old and off topic maybe, but there definately was an actual eye of Sauron, because Tolkien himself drew this picture of it for an early LotR box set: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/...yeofsauron.gif
(There's nother thread for this right? I haven't been here in a long time. )

[Ulmo]

Sauron used the eye as his symbol too, if you'll recall - that's what Tolkien was drawing, I think

[durin's bane]

I think that the Eye is Sauron's way of symbolizing himself, like Saruman uses the White Hand. I also think that when he has to make a guest appearance, like when Frodo saw him in the Mirror for instance, the Eye disguises himself. But he shows his normal body when talking through a Palantir.

Hey, I got this weird thought while reading all this talk of Sauron's finger and all. Isn't it strange how both Sauron and Frodo lost their finger while wearing the Ring after it was taken from them for good by a corrupted (or corrupted-to-be) being, that died after taking the Ring (either sooner or later)?

[Nerdanel]

Thank you for all the interesting things you've written! I promise, I will read LotR again, after finishing silmarillion and the Hobbit.

durin's bane, that's an interesting thought! I'm sure there has to be some connection; Tolkien has many hidden things in his book. Though it's a bit out of topic, please discuss and enjoy!

[Melko Belcha]

Just found another quote.

The Sil - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
There now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himself a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Numenor. He took up again the Ring and clothed himself in power; and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great amoung Elves and Men could endure.

This comes from after the Fall of Numenor, but before the Last Alliance. We know Sauron had physical form at that time because Isildur cut the Ring from his finger. But it also talks about the Eye of Sauron at the same time as him being in physical form. So the Eye of Sauron was there before the Last Alliance while Sauron was in physical form. Add this with the quotes I gave above where Tolkien makes it clear that Sauron had a physical form at the time of LotR.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Melko Belcha
Just found another quote.

The Sil - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
There now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himself a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Numenor. He took up again the Ring and clothed himself in power; and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great amoung Elves and Men could endure.

This comes from after the Fall of Numenor, but before the Last Alliance. We know Sauron had physical form at that time because Isildur cut the Ring from his finger. But it also talks about the Eye of Sauron at the same time as him being in physical form. So the Eye of Sauron was there before the Last Alliance while Sauron was in physical form. Add this with the quotes I gave above where Tolkien makes it clear that Sauron had a physical form at the time of LotR.

It also states in the appendices:

Second Age:

3319 - Ar-Pharazon assails Valinor. Downfall of Numenor. Elendil and sons escape.
3320 - Foundations of the Realms in Exile: Arnor & Gondor. The Stones are divided. Sauron returns to Mordor.

So he is back in Mordor the following year. It is stated somewhere as well, that it took him about 100 years or so to take form again, which is just in time for the Last Alliance...

[Melko Belcha]

Yes it took Sauron 100 years to reform after the Downfall of Numenor, but the quote above talks about the Eye of Sauron after talking about Sauron taking a new form and taking up the Ring again. It says nothing about the Eye of Sauron when Sauron is still building his new form.

But after he looses the Ring it takes him many long years to take a physical form. When Gandalf tells Elrond about Sauron taking shape again in Dol Guldur it is about 2,000 years after he lost the Ring.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Re: The palintirs.

They were originally placed in the following locations:

1) Osgiliath
2) Minas Ithil
3) Minas Anor
4) Orthanc
5) Annúminas(Fornost)
6) Amon Sul (Weathertop)
7) The White Towers

The stones at Annuminas, Amon Sul, and the White Towers were taken by Ardevui on his ill-fated voyage, and ended up at the bottom of the sea. The tower that housed the stone in Osgiliath was razed during the kinslaying, leaving only the stones at Minas Ithil, Minas Anorm and Orthanc, whose fates you know of. :P

I don't believe that's accurate. I've read a lot of sources saying that the Palantir at the White Towers was kept there in secret, and went in a ship into the West, I think on Cirdan's ship, but maybe on the ship that bore Galadriel, Gandalf, Frodo, and Bilbo.

Also, just for the record, the Ithil-stone was captured by Sauron when he took Minas Ithil, (later known as Minas Morgul), and the Anor-stone was that in the custody of the Stewards.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Oh...never mind...looks like everything in my post was already stated...and I even managed to get the ship wrong...

But, on to the palantir in the river: It is noteworthy, I think, that the Ring was in the same River (albeit at a "slow" section), and was, obviously, smaller and less weighty, but was not washed away.

[Shadowfax]

Originally posted by durin's bane
Isn't it strange how both Sauron and Frodo lost their finger while wearing the Ring after it was taken from them for good by a corrupted (or corrupted-to-be) being, that died after taking the Ring (either sooner or later)?

Yeah, that is an interesting parallel. I'd never thought about that before.

[Ulmo]

I don't think it's strange or unusual - it's really somewhat expected and natural that those who manage to keep the Ring in their grasp long enough suffer this same fate.

[gandalffan2525]

Here's what i've always thought:

-Sauron had a man-ish phisical form.
-He had the ability of farseeing, which means he could, to an extent, see things that were happening in other places.
-When he looked directly at you (farseeing or otherwise) you could feel his gaze.
-If you tried to look back (farseeing) at him you would see his (for lack of a better term) inner self which was manifested as a flameing eye.
-It was not pleasent.
-Definatly not pleasent.

[trolls' bane]

I remember reading somewhere in RotK that the Eye was some sort of window.