France wants to prevent students from wearing religious garb...

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
... articulacy (is that a word? you know - how people put their ideas into words) of people's views.

Yes, it means "Endowed with the power of speech"; or "Expressing oneself easily in clear and effective language."

We're all people, and all this Europe vs America stuff is such a bore.

I agree. I'm already bored with it myself. *yawn* How about Radagast just take a chill from his hate talk.

[hectorberlioz]

Actually, I find this a very interesting subject. I havent been this interested in a thread since who knows when.

What I find interesting is the fact that france hasnt tried maybe hiring stricter yeachers and pricipals for the schools, so as to stop the extreme prejudice against jewish students.
surely, they would be taking a short cut.

but I think I just dont know enough of the subject for that idea to have much logic...

[Radagast]

Tell you what, I'll just be quiet now...

[BeardofPants]

Yeah, you do that. Your sweeping generalisations are atrocious, and almost make me want to pull a Ruinel.

[Aden]

We're all people, and all this Europe vs America stuff is such a bore.

Yeah,that's so true! I'm really tired of people hating others just because they're americans or french or english or whatever. Certainly there are things that goverments do that I don't approve. But this has nothing to do with the country's people. I'm greek and I know that most greeks (including myself) don't approve many of the goverment's decisions. So wouldn't it be anfair to judge me or other greek according to our goverment's mistakes? Same goes for other countries.

[jerseydevil]

This article in next weeks Time magazine has the story about the Jewish school being burnt to the ground and the bpys having to wear baseball caps in Paris to hide their yarmakhas that I had seen on French news. The article is mostly about the increase in these type of crimes throughout Europe, which is the same thing I hear and see on French news not just US media.

Seven Days Of Hatred
Anti-Semitic attacks have been making headlines, but strikes against many minorities—Jews, Muslims, Roma, gays—are all too common in Europe

The hardest part of the day for the 230 boys at the Merkaz Hatorah Jewish high school in Gagny, a middle-class suburb of Paris, had always been getting there. During the train ride from home, the boys replaced their yarmulkes with baseball caps but were still regularly hassled by other French teenagers, usually of Arab or North African descent, who called them "sales juifs" ("dirty Jews"). Once the boys made it to the school, a bright steel-and-glass building surrounded by trees and tidy homes, they felt safe. No longer.

About 3 a.m. on Saturday Nov. 15, the school's brand-new building — due to open Jan. 5 — went up in flames. There are no suspects. Police believe the fire was likely started at two separate points. The blaze licked 8 m into the air, the searing heat blew out windows and warped girders. At least 60 firemen managed to save the old school building next door, but from the synagogue where the boys still gather every morning, they now look out over 3,000 sq m of charred debris. "We were in a very calm place here, a privileged place," says math teacher Michaël Mimoun. "Now we know there is no privileged place."

And it seems there is no place in Europe that's immune to hate crimes like the arson attack on the Merkaz Hatorah high school. The Gagny fire made headlines across France, and on the same day, the suicide bombings of two Istanbul synagogues led newscasts around the world. But in the week before the blaze, hundreds of hate crimes were committed throughout Europe against Jews, Muslims, Roma, Pakistanis and Africans. On Nov. 10, German police discovered a large black swastika painted on the wall of an empty factory building in Marienwerder Brandenburg. On Nov. 14, a box of six Molotov cocktails was found outside a synagogue in Ivry-sur-Seine, just south of Paris. On Nov. 15, this message appeared on a web forum hosted in the Netherlands, according to Magenta, a watchdog group in Amsterdam: "Just throw that Muslim vermin, those f___ing Muslim rats out of the country." And on the same day, Agrese 95, a Czech "white power" band, played before some 150 people in central Bohemia, singing lyrics like: "Enough tolerance ... Your future is ovens and gas chambers."

Most incidents like these do not make headlines. Although they would be denounced by the vast majority of Europeans, they are often not recognized by police — and their perpetrators aren't necessarily hard-core extremists. Different countries have different definitions of hate crime, and different ways of punishing offenders. But most agree that hate crimes are prompted by what the victim represents — a religion, race, nationality or, in some cases, sexual preference. Hard statistics are tough to find, since in most countries data collection remains abysmal. But in Germany, for example, anti-Semitic and xenophobic attacks were up in 2002. Anti-Semitic incidents are up in Italy and Belgium, too, while in France the number of anti-Semitic attacks increased dramatically until late 2002, then dropped this year. In London, racist and homophobic attacks have dropped slightly; but anti-Semitic complaints have increased nationwide.

Is there a method to this madness? To find out, TIME has reconstructed a week in the life of the people who've suffered a verbal or physical assault because of their perceived differences. In this imperfect collage — Saturday, Nov. 8 through Friday, Nov. 14 — the stories share many qualities: young perpetrators, usually acting without organization, lashing out at people and sacred places. Their motivations vary, but through their action they share a desire to keep Europe's deepest wounds unhealed.

more...

[GrayMouser]

I think that this is one area where those of us who are fron immigrant societies - Canada, America, Australia, NZ- can deal with this in an easier way. Most countries in the world are based on national/ethnic groups, and outsiders are always going to be seen that way.

For nations based on immigrants, it ain't necessarily so.

In this, the USA has led the way, because it's independence was based on defiance of the "Mother Country".

To be an 'American' therefore became (in theory, if not always in practise) a matter of accepting certain ideas and pledging loyalties to certain beliefs.

Because the other 'immigrant' societies were open in this way, it became easier for us to follow the 'American ' path. I've certainly seen this in my own lifetime in Canada- where it used to be 'British-Canadians', 'French-Canadians' and 'others'.

[jerseydevil]

I agree GrayMouser. My dscendants came over through Ellisa Island - from Ireland, Italy, Czechlosovakia, Poland, Russia - yet no one can deny that I am 100% American. My grandparents never considered themselves to be anything but American either - even though the apartment my ancestors on my mother's side was still in the family and was where my mother grew up in Jersey City. MY great-great-grandmother etched the date they came to America and moved into their new home into the pane of glass with her wedding ring.

America is founded on immigration and I think it is much easier for us to deal with the religious and cultural differences of others - this is particularly true in the northeast where so many people have immigrated to and still do. This is where the concept of the "melting pot" comes in. People think that the melting pot refers to everyone being the same - this is the furthest thing from the truth. It refers to the making of steel, taking different metals, melting them together and forming a much stronger, lighter, better metal from them.

[jerseydevil]

Chirac as agreed to a ban on people wearing head scarves and other religious symbols in schools, colleges and even recommends a ban in HOSPITALS.

Chirac: Ban headscarves in schools

PARIS, France (CNN) -- French President Jacques Chirac has called for a law banning religious symbols and clothing in state schools and hospitals.

Chirac's remarks Wednesday came in response to a commission report favoring the banning of Muslim head scarves, Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses in public schools.

He said he would sponsor legislation to make the ban law by next autumn.

In an address to the nation, Chirac said: "I feel that wearing any kind of symbol that ostensibly shows faith, I feel that that is something that should not be allowed in schools and colleges.

"If we are talking about a star of David, the hand of Fatima or a small cross, those are acceptable, but when it's very obvious, in other words, when if they are worn people can immediately see what religious faith they belong to, that should not be accepted."

Later in his remarks, Chirac said the ban should also apply to hospitals.

Chirac said the wearing of such symbols threatened the cohesion of the French people and France's separation of church and state.

"Secularity is one of the republic's great achievements," said Chirac. "It plays a crucial role in social harmony and national cohesion. We must not allow it to be weakened."

He also said he did not favor enacting new state holidays honoring different religions to supplement those holidays already on the books.

Chirac said France, whose Muslim and Jewish populations are the largest in Europe, must remain a multicultural society.

A poll published Wednesday, showed the majority of French people side with Chirac. The poll published in the Paris daily Le Parisien showed 69 percent favor a law banning the wearing of head scarves and other religious symbols.

Although directed at all three religions, the recommendation was seen as being aimed at countering Islamic fundamentalism, The Associated Press reported.

Muslims, who comprise about eight percent of France's population, had urged Chirac not to propose a law to enforce any ban. Christian and Jewish religious leaders have also voiced opposition.

"A law on religious symbols in the school environment could stigmatize a whole community," Dalil Boubakeur, president of the French Council of the Muslim Faith, told Reuters.

The topic took on new life after dozens of girls were expelled from school in the past two years for refusing to remove headscarves.

Some human rights groups said they opposed the measure. The International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights said the law would violate France's commitments to protect freedom of religion, Reuters reported.

The group added that a head scarf ban would result in alienation and marginalization of Muslims living in France.

So will all talk of one's religion be outlawed in French schools next? I feel this is counterproductive to bringing understanding between religions. I also feel that many muslims will then be forced to go to all muslim schools - because some feel so strongly about the covering of their hair and skin.

[Nerdanel]

while i'm strongly for the separation of church and state i also believe that everyone has a right to express their beliefs as long as they do not infringe upon others

for example, i think it is wrong to require prayer in school, but i have no problem making it optional... i put nationalism (i.e. the pledge of allegiance) on the same level, since i have always seen nationalism as a form of state theology

let the kids wear what they want... there is no point in raising kids in a sterile environment that does not reflect the reality they will become a part of when they become adults

I agree! School isn't a place where you should stop people from expressing themselves and finding themselves.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I feel this is counterproductive to bringing understanding between religions. I also feel that many muslims will then be forced to go to all muslim schools - because some feel so strongly about the covering of their hair and skin.

Exactly what I think too.

[Elladan]

Hey! I'm Elladan, and American living in London and going to a french school. All I can say is that the french call this "laïque". This means that the French have no imposed religions and that they respect all other beliefs. This is very important to the French so they think they should ban all sign "ostentatoire" (visible) of religion, political and philosophical orientation.

I understand why the French think this is necessary, but I see it as "laïcard" which is disrespectful to religion. But to each his own.

[Cowlek]

I think its an outrage stopping students from wearign the head scarves.
Its taking away their right to express their religious beleif's.Its like taking away freedom of speech.
Its disgusting of the French.(No offence to any frnch people)

[Ornelírë Mistë]

My good friend Mona, who is a Muslim from Lebanon, told me of this in France. I believe her parents grew up in France, she has cousins there. She is offended.

It seems like it is an opinion that people shouldn't display their religious beliefs in public schools. Legislation should not be based on an opinion. While some people may think this may prevent problems, it seems to me that it shall cause more problems.

[jerseydevil]

French news reported on this from Washington today and said that American just don't understand and we're completely ignorant of what they are trying to do.

It was sort of strange - they didn't say anything about what we thought they were doing - just that we were completely ignorant.

If you understand French - you can watch the December 18th broadcast of Journal de 20h

[Radagast]

[Edited and removed some remarks by self]. I agree with Chirac.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Radagast
I can understand that- it is difficult for Americans to fully appreciate English problems just as it is the same vice versa. My views (i.e. that I agree with the ban) having been expressed earlier, I think that, overall, Chirac has French interests at heart. He tries to protect the French values, not the Muslim values.

Where we are different - we, the United States, protect INDIVIDUAL rights. We don't force people here to fit into the "American" model - hence my feeling that Europe is less open to other's differences. So - I suppose the French feel their values are SUPERIOR over Muslims and others. What are they protecting their society from? Outside influences which will corrupt it?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Radagast:

I'm curious: How is it that the wearing of a symbol of one's faith is "extremism"? Would a nun wearing her habit in public be extremism? Why are people embarrassed by others who wear such things?

As I haven't heard a view like that before, I'm very interested in learning more.

[jellyfishannah]

I am embarrassed by people with bad taste in fashion. Maybe we should make it so everyone dresses like I do...

[Radagast]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Where we are different - we, the United States, protect INDIVIDUAL rights. We don't force people here to fit into the "American" model - hence my feeling that Europe is less open to other's differences. So - I suppose the French feel their values are SUPERIOR over Muslims and others. What are they protecting their society from? Outside influences which will corrupt it?

You are far too quick to leap in with a sarcastic comment. I shall, however, explain what I meant. I agree that America is an entirely different case- but she is not a yardstick. She may well be a beacon of tolerance and equal love but her principles sometimes cannot transfer to other, older nations with, and here's the important point, older problems. Did you read the article a while ago about France protecting its language from outside influences? That French is becoming less and less spoken? I can understand wanting to lock everything down and preserving French. What is more dear to a nation that its language? Tolkien once said that everything about a nation can be told my its language.

I am not a plenipotentiary for France so I cannot speak entirely for her but surely every nation holds its values as superior over that of others? Don't you force immigrants to make an Oath of Allegiance? You hold your values of tolerance superior, surely, over the values of let's-all-hack-the-infidels? Surely you hold your values superior over the those of the 11th September terrorists? AND please note- by that sentence do not assume I hold the terrorist values to be true to all Muslims and so forth.

My point boils down to the fact that when one comes to a nation you should meld in. You say you are 100% American, don't you jerseydevil? Your Polish or whatever ancestors considered themselves American. So too should French Muslims consider themselves French. true to French values- which react with horror to the wearing of veils.

As to nuns and their habits that's I good point and one which has caught me out a bit, I must say. But I suppose that is a different case- because, by definition, they voluntarily became nuns, they therefore chose to wear the habit [they have very bad habits, by the way, those nuns ] whereas the veil is forced on them.