Bush's Security on visit to Buckingham Palace

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Radagast
Yes, how is that starting a whole new country thing after a revolution going for you these days?

Much better than it was when we were ruled unjustly by a monarchy

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
lets not get into full blown ugly american sydnrome over such useless shaft shall we .

You should be more proud of being American as opposed to resulting to such generalizations about your own people...

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Radagast
[flame edited]

[flame edited] *cough* Dubya *cough*

[Goatee]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
[flame edited] *cough* Dubya *cough*

Geographic bigotry. Nice.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Goatee
Geographic bigotry. Nice.

Ah well... but I suspect we're all a bit guilty of it... and that it works both ways!

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Valandil
Ah well... but I suspect we're all a bit guilty of it... and that it works both ways!

Yeah - but when an american does it - we're ignorant and arrogant.

And IR - it isn't a matter of "when in Rome". Have a sense of pride - I'd like to see how you feel if you HAD to bow to someone.

Radagast - as has been stated - we do NOT care if you guys bow to your queen - you can think she is above you all you want. We however do not even think the president is above the "common" citizen - because that is all he is - a "common" citizen. He is not above the laws of this land nor do we expect as the leader of OUR country to bow or be subservient to any foreign monarch or head of state or foreign leader.

Sun-Star as to why I don't think that Bush should be going there - it mostly deals with that he's so hated over there. I was wondering if any Britons would care about him going over. As it turns out - it seems like a majority are welcoming him and glad he is coming over.

Also - I can't speak for others - but yes - I know the difference between royalty and nobiliity. And as Valandil posted - a citizen of the us can not have a noble title bestowed on them. We completely broke away from that in 1776.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
You should be more proud of being American as opposed to resulting to such generalizations about your own people...

If I wasn’t proud to be an American I wouldn’t respond to Americans who post things that I find embarrassing to be honest. I wouldn’t care. Just like if I posted something about bombing the government Id expect you to call me on it.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
And IR - it isn't a matter of "when in Rome". Have a sense of pride - I'd like to see how you feel if you HAD to bow to someone.

that’s the point. Nobody HAS to. They aren’t gonna be thrown in the stockades if they don’t. and honestly I wouldn’t have a problem with it if its standard practice. It would be like shaking hands. A gesture done just for protocol. Now if they said “pathetic american bow down on your knees and worship me you slime” well that would be a whole different thing. Then theyd get the full moon treatment.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
If I wasn’t proud to be an American I wouldn’t respond to Americans who post things that I find embarrassing to be honest. I wouldn’t care. Just like if I posted something about bombing the government Id expect you to call me on it.

Just remember that just because someone states something you may not agree with - does not mean that it should be an embarrassment.

that’s the point. Nobody HAS to. They aren’t gonna be thrown in the stockades if they don’t. and honestly I wouldn’t have a problem with it if its standard practice. It would be like shaking hands. A gesture done just for protocol. Now if they said “pathetic american bow down on your knees and worship me you slime” well that would be a whole different thing. Then theyd get the full moon treatment.

i don't care if it's protocol. OUR leader should NOT be bowing to a foreign ruler or head of state. Her subjects can bow to her all they want, people who want to kiss up to her can bow all they want, but the president of OUR country should bow to no one - unless they are bowing back. That is where your "handshaking" comparison falls short. When you shake hands - both are doing the acknowledging, it is a sign of friendship (it came about as proof that one wasn't carrying a gun). When a person bows to another with a return gesture - that is a sign of subservience.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
i don't care if it's protocol. OUR leader should NOT be bowing to a foreign ruler or head of state. Her subjects can bow to her all they want, people who want to kiss up to her can bow all they want, but the president of OUR country should bow to no one - unless they are bowing back. That is where your "handshaking" comparison falls short. When you shake hands - both are doing the acknowledging, it is a sign of friendship (it came about as proof that one wasn't carrying a gun). When a person bows to another with a return gesture - that is a sign of subservience.

just curious. did the Queen ever actually say bow down to me? is it just as wrong if its given without being first requested? if its offered by the bower not requested by the uh.. bowie.. is it still an outrage?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Radagast
[flame edited]

I suppose it depends on your definition of "keeping a civil tongue". If it means not putting forth my opinion, then I suppose I don't.

[flame edited] Just like you should expect the Americans to be offended by the English expecting our president to bow to the queen. It's ludicrous.

[flame edited] I'm not a Bush supporter. I didn't vote for him (just like the majority of citizens here didn't either). But I won't have someone who is supposed to be representing my country acting like a total ninny abroad. (Ok, well, anymore than he already does. )

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
just curious. did the Queen ever actually say bow down to me? is it just as wrong if its given without being first requested? if its offered by the bower not requested by the uh.. bowie.. is it still an outrage?

You see - I don't care about Bowie or anyone else. I care about OUR President bowing to a foreign head of state. Anyone who chooses to bow to the queen can - except when they represent our FREE nation - who fought a war to rid ourselves of their monarchy and to no longer have to bow to them.

As for Bush bowing - he didn't. They shook hands which I had hoped he would. There is NO reason for the president to bow to the queen. We are not one of her servants and we are not a British colony.

As for when people bow to the queen - it is understood that you bow to the queen, that you do not turn your back on her and bunch of other rules. Because it is viewed or has been viewed that the monarchy is above everyone else.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Ruinel
[flame edited]

No thanks, I'm trying to give up.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I didn't vote for him (just like the majority of citizens here didn't either).

Well actually the majority did vote hiom there - because he won Texas. I know people harp on the popular vote - but we have the electoral college to make sure all states are represented. They have the SAME representation in voting for the president as they do in Congress. It was a long vote battle between the large and small states to get representation without being completely overrun by the large states.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Valandil
PS - Not that we Americans are trying to pick a fight about it...

Ya could have fooled me.

In retrospect, I suppose bowing is a little outdated between leaders of nations and shaking hands is a rather more equal and suitable these days.

But I had NO idea that's still such a hot issue in America. I mean, how long has it been since you became independant from England? Over 200 years?

I had absolutely no idea Americans kept these grudges for so long. If I was writing in Dutch I would say something about getting old cows out of the ditch, but I doubt that has the same meaning in English. Anyway, just forget what I said about the cows. I mean if we would do the same here we'd probably still be holding grudges against France, Germany, the Netherlands, Austria and Spain. Probably some others too.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
... lets not get into full blown ugly american sydnrome over such useless shaft shall we .

tisk tisk tisk. What a shame that you think this of your own people. I hope I'm mistaken here.

I consider the president of the USA to be of far more importance and power than someone like the queen that really has no power at all. Think about it, really. If the queen were killed, the Brits might mourn (or not) but the country would keep on going with no real change in the powers of government. If the president of the US were shot and killed... OMG!! We'd have Dick Cheney!!!

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well actually the majority did vote hiom there - because he won Texas. I know people harp on the popular vote - but we have the electoral college to make sure all states are represented... (lots of other stuff here)....

Um... I didn't vote for him. And I'm not talking about Texas, I was referring to the citizens of the USA. Okey dokey?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Eärniel
But I had NO idea that's still such a hot issue in America. I mean, how long has it been since you became independant from England? Over 200 years?

I had absolutely no idea Americans kept these grudges for so long. If I was writing in Dutch I would say something about getting old cows out of the ditch, but I doubt that has the same meaning in English. Anyway, just forget what I said about the cows. I mean if we would do the same here we'd probably still be holding grudges against France, Germany, the Netherlands, Austria and Spain. Probably some others too.

It's not a matter of hiolding grudges. If we held grudges we would have said - burn europe - and cheering on the flames as World War I and II raged on. No - it's about OUR leader bowing to another leader in a subservient manner. OUR flag - does not dip to other flags or to other people. Our flag is the only flag that waves highly passed the Olympic flag during opening ceremonies. We are a proud people - and we fought for our independence - we will not bow to another head of state - let alone a country who we fought for this right NOT to bow.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
No thanks, I'm trying to give up.

Ah, too bad.
[edited]

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Um... I didn't vote for him. And I'm not talking about Texas, I was referring to the citizens of the USA. Okey dokey?

I know you were talking about the USA - but the thing is - we have state rights and the president is voted on BY state. Each person in each state is represented in the vote. (as to how the electorals are determined - that's up to the state) It is a way of giving all states and equal say. We are basically seperate countries in a Union. In my view - sometimes too strong of a Union. The Federal government in my opinion has TOO much power now.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Eärniel
I had absolutely no idea Americans kept these grudges for so long.

Not our grudges, just our principles!

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Eärniel
...In retrospect, I suppose bowing is a little outdated between leaders of nations and shaking hands is a rather more equal and suitable these days.

I agree on the hand-shaking between leaders of nations. But is the queen of England really a leader of her nation? What laws does she set down? Does she determine if the troups go to war? What is her power in England?