Are Elves condescending and arrogant? - Page 3

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-26-2003, 11:35 AM

Artanis, you are not being helpful. I am trying to make Ruinel dislike Finrod. Not an easy task.

Artanis · 10-26-2003, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Artanis, you are not being helpful. I am trying to make Ruinel dislike Finrod. Not an easy task.

Sorry, but that's OYP*.

And calling Celeborn a jerk doesn't earn you any goodwill from me.

*Obviosly Your Problem

Ruinel · 10-26-2003, 01:06 PM

See, Artanis, how I put Celeborn in with the good Elves?

And you, as well.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-26-2003, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
Sorry, but that's OYP*.
And calling Celeborn a jerk doesn't earn you any goodwill from me.

*Obviosly Your Problem

Well, Celeborn is a jerk, and he reminds me a great deal of that other jerk, Thingol. Of course they are cut from the same cloth, aren't they?

Ruinel, you butt kisser.

Artanis · 10-26-2003, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, Celeborn is a jerk, and he reminds me a great deal of that other jerk, Thingol.

Galadriel would never have married a jerk.

Beor · 10-26-2003, 02:34 PM

well, I'd say that if the elves are condescending towards men and dwarves, that they do have a right to be, or at least a reason, anyway. At the battle of unnumbered tears, men betrayed the hell out of maedhros, albiet they were the uh.."swarthy men", that kind of thing probably kinda puts elves off.

Thingol was arrogant, but he was also looking out for his kingdom and his people. He might have gone about it in the wrong way, and made quite a few mistakes, like turning men out from the get-go, but he was nervous, ever since the Noldor came back and he learned of the kinslaying. Then he got killed by the dwarves for a silmaril (which he wouldnt have had, but for Beren

).

As far as their seemingly sit back and watch policy of the war of the rings, if it (the policy) actually existed, it might have had something to do with the fact that the Valar interferred with them in their childhood, and it ended up going somewhat wrong, for a lot of people. A lot of good came too, but I think that's another thread.

At least they're not senile

Also, if they are, there aint much anyone could do about it anyway, so you've just gotta weather the storm and let them rant on sometimes

Celeborn is not a jerk, but he is kinda strange sometimes, IMO

Ruinel · 10-26-2003, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
...Ruinel, you butt kisser.

Are you flaming me, SGH?

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
Galadriel would never have married a jerk.

Good point, Artanis. And we all know that JRRT considered Galadriel to have a keen insight into the soul of those she knew. Look at Feanor, she never liked him much. Yet, she married Celeborn. There has to be something really special about Celeborn to draw Galadriel to him.

(I'll refrain from the obvious sexual innuendo here.

)

MasterMothra · 10-26-2003, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Do you think that Elves are condescending and arrogant to other races of Middle Earth? If so, you better be prepared to give examples.

You asked for opinions and supporting evidence and both were given equally.

Quote:

Those that were not proper representations for the Elves: Thingol, Feanor, and Feanor's sons.

Hmmm, this statement still baffles me. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but werent those elves important?

Are there any other conditions that must be met before proceeding with this discussion?

***Earniel*** · 10-26-2003, 03:02 PM

Personally I never really got the impression from LoTR that the Elves were arrogant. (The Silmarillion is of course a different matter, those Silmarillion-Elves were quite a surprise for me.

)

I got more the impression that the LoTR-Elves were a little distant, as if the world was changing faster than they could keep up with.

I think we shouldn't forget that most Elves had been already a loooong time on Middle-earth in LoTR and were quite a deal older than the other races of Men and Dwarves. I think it was rather difficult for Elves talking with creatures that were so much younger and more inexperienced than you without sounding arrogant at times.

Ruinel · 10-26-2003, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MasterMothra
...Are there any other conditions that must be met before proceeding with this discussion?

Yes, you need to do 20 push ups. Then you may proceed with discussing in this thread.

Radagast The Brown · 10-26-2003, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
Yes, you need to do 20 push ups. Then you may proceed with discussing in this thread.

Spammer...

Quote:

originally posted by Earniel
The Silmarillion is of course a different matter, those Silmarillion-Elves were quite a surprise for me.

Well, in the Sil the elves were many; in LOTR they were only the remainders.
They were stronger back then comparing to the men. in the third age... they were different.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-26-2003, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
Galadriel would never have married a jerk.

Why not? Melian did, and she was a Maia.

***Earniel*** · 10-26-2003, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Well, in the Sil the elves were many; in LOTR they were only the remainders. They were stronger back then comparing to the men. in the third age... they were different.

Darn right they were different.

It's not so much that there were a lot more Elves in the Silmarillion than in LoTR. It was more the notion of Elves fighting wars and killing one another that shattered my previously peaceful ideas about the Eldar.

Quote:

Originally posted by SGH
Why not? Melian did, and she was a Maia.

However, you don't know how Celeborn and Thingol were at the time Galadriel and Melian married them. And you might never know if you still think of Finrod the same way when you celebrate your mithril marriage.

Willow Oran · 10-26-2003, 11:24 PM

Of course elves were condescending and arrogant, so were the humans and the dwarves and just about every other sentient being in middle earth because it is in the nature of creatures that think to always believe that their sort of creature is better than any other sort of creature. The fact that the elves had already been around for a really long time by the time they started interacting with humans only made this tendency more obvious.

Aside from that, Celeborn is not a jerk. He over-reacted to some bad news, and apologized afterwards. That is the only time anywhere that he is anything other than courteous and willing to give advice.

Thingol was a jerk, I'll admit that, personally I think it was the name that did him in. His character was fine under the name Elwe.

***Rían*** · 10-27-2003, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Look at Thinglo ...

This typo just cracked me up for some reason

I agree with the chocoholic Sea Elf - in LoTR, the elves seemed distant.

Artanis · 10-27-2003, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Why not? Melian did, and she was a Maia.

Galadriel would never settle with a man who could not match her own intelligence and strength. It would be against her personality to take anything less than the best.

Melian will have to answer for herself. Though I would argue against the jerkiness of Thingol too.

MasterMothra · 10-27-2003, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
Galadriel would never settle with a man who could not match her own intelligence and strength. It would be against her personality to take anything less than the best.

I'm not so sure about that. It seems to me she chose someone whom she would not have to compete with for attention. Celeborn did not represent a figure that rivaled her fame and stature. She was definately the matriarch and desired power.
"But my heart is still proud. What wrong did the golden house of Finarfin do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar, or be content with an isle in the sea whose native land was Aman the Blessed? Here I am mightier". -Galadriel to Celebrimbor, UT. Galadriel the wise and fair, but also proud and arrogant.

If she desired an equal she would have chosen Celebrimbor.

Attalus · 10-27-2003, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
Galadriel would never have married a jerk.

Yes, Celeborn grated on me, too, when I first read LotR, but I had to admit that his apology was handsome enough. As for Galadriel marrying him, I have seen strong, independent women marry relatively late to handsome, less forceful men. Galadriel's statement about "the golden house of Finarfin" is quite arrogant, but she learned wisdom over time to finally find the humility to reject the Ruling Ring, to be finally forgiven and return over sea, so perhaps the early arrogance of the Elves was a function of their youth, relatively speaking. As for Fëanor, Celegrm, Curufin, and Thingol, their arrogance is quite breathtaking, IMO

Artanis · 10-27-2003, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MasterMothra
I'm not so sure about that. It seems to me she chose someone whom she would not have to compete with for attention. Celeborn did not represent a figure that rivaled her fame and stature. She was definately the matriarch and desired power.
"But my heart is still proud. What wrong did the golden house of Finarfin do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar, or be content with an isle in the sea whose native land was Aman the Blessed? Here I am mightier". -Galadriel to Celebrimbor, UT. Galadriel the wise and fair, but also proud and arrogant.

If she desired an equal she would have chosen Celebrimbor.

Problem is, we don't really know much about Celeborn (nor about Celebrimbor, except that he was crafty) before we meet him briefly in LotR. It is true that Galadriel was proud in her youth, and that's exactly why I don't believe she would choose Celeborn as husband if he wasn't outstanding.

MasterMothra · 10-27-2003, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Attalus
As for Fëanor, Celegrm, Curufin, and Thingol, their arrogance is quite breathtaking, IMO

I agree! That is what made them so interesting.

10-26-2003, 11:35 AM	#41
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Artanis, you are not being helpful. I am trying to make Ruinel dislike Finrod. Not an easy task. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

10-26-2003, 02:34 PM	#46
Beor founder of the color blue Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: E-Space Posts: 1,727	well, I'd say that if the elves are condescending towards men and dwarves, that they do have a right to be, or at least a reason, anyway. At the battle of unnumbered tears, men betrayed the hell out of maedhros, albiet they were the uh.."swarthy men", that kind of thing probably kinda puts elves off. Thingol was arrogant, but he was also looking out for his kingdom and his people. He might have gone about it in the wrong way, and made quite a few mistakes, like turning men out from the get-go, but he was nervous, ever since the Noldor came back and he learned of the kinslaying. Then he got killed by the dwarves for a silmaril (which he wouldnt have had, but for Beren ). As far as their seemingly sit back and watch policy of the war of the rings, if it (the policy) actually existed, it might have had something to do with the fact that the Valar interferred with them in their childhood, and it ended up going somewhat wrong, for a lot of people. A lot of good came too, but I think that's another thread. At least they're not senile Also, if they are, there aint much anyone could do about it anyway, so you've just gotta weather the storm and let them rant on sometimes Celeborn is not a jerk, but he is kinda strange sometimes, IMO __________________ Well, there it is.

10-26-2003, 03:02 PM	#49
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Personally I never really got the impression from LoTR that the Elves were arrogant. (The Silmarillion is of course a different matter, those Silmarillion-Elves were quite a surprise for me. ) I got more the impression that the LoTR-Elves were a little distant, as if the world was changing faster than they could keep up with. I think we shouldn't forget that most Elves had been already a loooong time on Middle-earth in LoTR and were quite a deal older than the other races of Men and Dwarves. I think it was rather difficult for Elves talking with creatures that were so much younger and more inexperienced than you without sounding arrogant at times. __________________ We are not things.

10-26-2003, 11:24 PM	#54
Willow Oran Deus Ex Machina Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,951	Of course elves were condescending and arrogant, so were the humans and the dwarves and just about every other sentient being in middle earth because it is in the nature of creatures that think to always believe that their sort of creature is better than any other sort of creature. The fact that the elves had already been around for a really long time by the time they started interacting with humans only made this tendency more obvious. Aside from that, Celeborn is not a jerk. He over-reacted to some bad news, and apologized afterwards. That is the only time anywhere that he is anything other than courteous and willing to give advice. Thingol was a jerk, I'll admit that, personally I think it was the name that did him in. His character was fine under the name Elwe. __________________ "5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE. -Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi

10-26-2003, 01:06 PM	#43
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	See, Artanis, how I put Celeborn in with the good Elves? And you, as well.