Atheists and Fantasy

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by IronParrot
Don't forget Sagan and Adams.

Heh, it's interesting that you bring up David Brin, because after having read much of his material before, the guy really doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. But strangely enough, the links you pointed out are actually relevant.

Are you talking about his fiction ? Which I must admit I don't particularly like, but I haven't read anything else by him.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Ruinel
1) And you still have not addressed the repeated reply that Atheists still like to enjoy a good story.

2) I have a question for you: if you are reading a good story in which the main character group worships a group of gods and goddesses. By reading this story and enjoying it, does this mean that you now worship other gods beside your Christian god. Do you have to believe that these gods and goddesses exist in order to enjoy the story?

1) Didn't think it bore mentioning; what else is there to say on that? Of course, there's the critics argument that fantasy is not a "good story", but naturally I won't get into that.

2) Oy....I must be doing an awful job of saying what I mean. I'm not talking about specifics, but about faith in that which we cannot see, and in higher powers. I'm talking a very general thing, here. Obviously, it doesn't mean that I worship other gods (though my brother does ocassionally pray to Moradin, the D&D god of Dwarves ) I'm not talking about specific things, I am talking quite simply about Faith in the unknown, faith in that which we cannot see, and so forth. How many of you atheists can honestly say that you consider "blind faith" to be a GOOD thing?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
1) I only mention the bible - because it's the main belief on this board. I don't believe that people's souls are held inside a cow until their reincarnation like the Hindus either. So I don't necessarily restrict it to Christian religions - it's just that more people are on Entmoot.

2) But your hypothesis makes no sense. I don't BELIEVE the stuff I read in a fantasy book. So what if it has devils or hell or other mysterious creatures and places. It's cool to think these things might exist while reading a book - but after I'm done - I don't think I'll run into any elves walking in my neighborhood.

The only TRUE mythical creature is the NEW JERSEY DEVIL.

1) I know, I was just poking at you, after you jumped on my awhile ago.
2) Am I really doing such a bad job of expressing myself? Do you think that believing in something such as a god, gods, etc. is a good thing? Is Blind Faith a positive attribute?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by IronParrot
1) Off the top of my head:

- LOTR
- Harry Potter
- Alice's Adventures in Wonderland / Through the Looking-Glass
- The Duncton Chronicles
- The Princess Bride
- The Wonderful Wizard of Oz (and several of the sequels)

- 2) Potter, Alice and Oz are all bound to the Earth we know in a very loose way. They all involve central characters who are children freed from the bonds of a dreary reality in a world where anything can happen: flying monkeys, living chessmen, high-speed football on broomsticks - the possibilities are vast and wondrous.

- 3) I never found LOTR to be a very religious work at all. If anything, it is a very earthly adventure; the central characters are ordinary hobbits drawn into a much larger world for a time, but the key thing to remember is that while these adventures changed them, they were ultimately not part of that much grander world. As for the adventure itself, I was drawn by the complexity of the plot, the depth/freedom of interpretability offered by the text, and just how much I missed the characters by the time I was done.

4) You will note that I did not name The Silmarillion.

5) - Duncton is about the most religious of all the works I named - very focused on faith, and largely built around religious wars among communities of moles that live in the English countryside and worship Stonehenge-esque monoliths. There is even a martyred Christ figure at one point, and it was rather obvious. But the execution of this seemingly ridiculous concept was done with just enough storytelling finesse that I loved it.

1) I love Alice in Wonderland. Marvelous work.
2) Don't forget that LOTR is set in this world a long time ago.
3) Depending on what you mean by a "religious work", I may or m ay not agree with you.
4)
5) Sounds quite interesting; I'll have to investigate it. Which part is ridiculous, by the way?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by IronParrot
1) Characters with a lot of faith can be very interesting to follow, especially when you see them struggle with it, or gradually defined by its implications. Once again I point to Star Wars: not only does it focus on a supernatural power of sorts, but you see characters using and abusing it, and shaped by its lasting effects. To me, these were pretty legendary characters.

2) However, GW, you are on the right track (as far as my views are concerned) about one thing: I don't like it when religion and faith take over a story's integral structure. This is a problem I have with Lewis' Narnia, that despite all its wonderment, it sometimes falls into the trap of playing second fiddle to Message. Thankfully, it more than makes up for this with its various merits. Actually, Narnia is a bad example, because it actually is pretty good.

3) And for that reason, I find that fiction based on concepts of religion, faith, destiny, divine law, et cetera can be powerful for the exact same reasons the Bible has such wide appeal.

1) Indeed they are. I certainly agree with that.
2) Do you mean religion and faith within the story, or "Message", as you call it?
3) Except that many, many people believe that the Bible is true, whereas it's restricted to a few cults for fantasy.

[GrayMouser]

As far as I can see what Gwaimir is talking about here is a more general predilection than a specific identification between any particular religion and any individual fantasy work.

Again, reasonably you would think that the correlation exists- secular/agnostic types should be more drawn to SF; spiritual/religious to fantasy.

I'm not sure it does.

I'm a secular humanist naturalist left-winger; my favorite writers are ironic Tories- Jane Austen, Anthony Trollope - or reactionary Christians- Dosteovski, Tolkien.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Baby-K
1) Gwaim - faith = trust = believing in the unseen. I can't 'see' or scientifically prove that my friends or family won't harm me or that they love me, call it instinct if you want, but I 'know' it's true, with or without proof. And yeah, OK we can see the result of that love, 2) but so we can see the result of faith in something higher than us (or are you willing to believe in something just because you are told to, without proof of their existence? Or without ever seeing any result of their love for you?)

3) That's insulting, but I'll let it slide. I never said I gave up my belief in God - I gave up on Christians. There's a huge difference - God can exist without Christians, (but Christians cannot exist without Him). 4) I believe in science and mankind too & find more value in spirituality rather than religion (and yes, IMO there is a difference). 5) BTW - I said the theme of fantasy was search for knowledge & truth or wanting to escape oppression or threats (where I come from '/' means either, OR not AND - blame it on my English second language education), as many atheists are searching for knowledge / truth seperate from religious influence, 6) I did not say that Christians were opressive threats, if you wanna view yourself as such be my guest. Oh & btw, if you're gonna address me don't do so in the third person, it irritates me no end.

1) Hmm...actually, I think that by scientific method, i.e. observation of their behavior, coupled with the sciences dealing with the human mind, you could predict their behaviour. In fact, I know someone who claims to be exploring a new branch of science based on this, which he calls psychohistory. However, it is only fair to mention that among the other claims of this person is that he invented the lightsaber, so he may not be totally reliable. Not to say that he isn't, but I must admit I'm skeptical about lightsabers...
2) The result of faith, perhaps, but the actual result of God, Gods, etc. is rarely capable of being seen, and explained away when it is.
3) I hope you understand that my intention was not to insult you. I had no idea that you would consider someone thinking you are an atheist as insulting. I sincerely and humbly offer my apologies. All I knew was that you said you no longer called yourself Christian, and that you were searching for something which was right for you.
4) By spirituality, do you mean meditation, yoga, and such?
5) It means and/or in English, to the best of my knowledge; I've just come to look upon it as a simpler version of &. My apologies.
6) I apologise; I merely intended that as a joke. I also apologise about referring to you in third person.
BoP, I hope that's not too many points; one more, and I would have split it.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Again, reasonably you would think that the correlation exists- secular/agnostic types should be more drawn to SF; spiritual/religious to fantasy.

Since agnostics don't believe one way or the other, I would think they'd go for both.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
In fact, I know someone who claims to be exploring a new branch of science based on this, which he calls psychohistory. However, it is only fair to mention that among the other claims of this person is that he invented the lightsaber, so his word may not be totally reliable.

Seldon invented the lightsaber?

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Since agnostics don't believe one way or the other, I would think they'd go for both.

I used to be an agnostic; now I'm not so sure.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Seldon invented the lightsaber?

If Seldon frequents the GameFortress forums as Demon Overlord.

[Ruinel]

Gwai. You asked me a question, do I think that 'blind faith' is an admirable attribute.

My answer is going to catch a lot of flack... but no... I do not, but it depends on your meaning. I'm defining 'blind faith' as a faith or trust in something or someone you know nothing about, or have no evidence to support a claim. This is how con artists rob their marks. So, no... if this is your definition also, I do not think it is an admirable attribute.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

That question was addressed to all of the atheists on this board; thanks, Ruinel, for answering.

[Hasty Ent]

I agree with Ruinel -- I don't see 'blind faith' as a good thing. Faith, for those who have it, should be held with eyes, mind and heart wide open.

I used to be agnostic like GrayMouser. Now I'm a devout atheist.

I think I understand your question Gwai, and it's an interesting one. Bottom line for me, however, is whether or not the story is good. I think it is possible that for those whose lives are centered on a spiritual belief system there may be a predilection for faith-based narrative, but that's all. Just a tendency that way.

There is a form of 'Blind Faith' I have always respected -- the band from the 60s -- and the first LP I ever bought...

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
As far as I can see what Gwaimir is talking about here is a more general predilection than a specific identification between any particular religion and any individual fantasy work.

Yes, that's what I refer to, thank you very much.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Hasty Ent
I used to be agnostic like GrayMouser.

I didn't think he meant he was agnostic, I thought that was just a joke. Or am I wrong...

Now I'm a devout atheist. [/B]

HA! See, atheism is a religion!

[Hasty Ent]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I didn't think he meant he was agnostic, I thought that was just a joke. Or am I wrong...

I think he was joking...and that's what I was quoting.

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
HA! See, atheism is a religion!

OH NO!!! NOT THAT DEBATE AGAIN!!!

[Sheeana]

*Smacks Gwaimir on the upside of his head* IDEOLOGY, idiot!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Atheists just say it isn't a religion so they're free from the separation of Church and State. So nyah.

Okay, maybe we better stop before this goes too far...

[IronParrot]

(knowingly getting off-topic here)

In fact, atheism is hardly even an ideology. Postmodernist atheists reject the entire concept of ideology as it is. And you can't call it a religion because atheism is not doctrinally unified in any way. For example, Buddhists are atheists. (Heck, even Jedi are atheists.) And the whole definition of religion is predicated on organized sets of beliefs common to people; an individual spin on an atheistic model is not religious.

To model it in a more understandable fashion: a vacuum is not an object or set of objects. It is the lack thereof. Similarly, atheism is the lack of a belief in deities. There are atheist religions, but atheism itself is not a religion. What a preposterously misunderstood fallacy.

Don't bother arguing with me. I'm right.

Now back on the subject of fantasy...