Does Gandalf eventually die?

[Findegil]

Posted by Artanis:

But do you agree that it would require repentance on Melkor's part, if he were to be redeemed and get to play in the second music? And if you do agree, how can we be sure that he is willing to repent?

Clearly yes to the first question. Repentace of the deeds done against the uttered will of Eru is necessary. In his past Melkor had been two times near to it:
When Eru showed the Ainur the vision of Ea Melkor was ashamed because of the rebuke he had taken from Eru. Tolkien did not make much about it, but for me that's one of trembling times of Legend. If Melkor would have accepted the critic of Eru, than the history of Arda would have gone other wise. In that case he had have two possipility: He could have not entered Ea and stayed with Eru to learn more of the knowledge that he missed in the music, or he could have entered the world and take a better course there. The second way was much more difficult because the music was as fate to all that inhabited Ea with the exception of men only. So his most weeked deeds were done against men (or the children of Ilúvatar in general). If he had changed his course only slightly in this matter it would have made a graet diverence.

The second occasion were Melkor had been on the age of repentance was when Utumno was stoormed by the Valar. Melkor discovered than that he had dispressed his power. As Tolkien discriebed in Morgoth's Ring that was really the piont of no return for Melkor. But it is even more difficult to imaging what Melkor could have done had he resolved his course otherwise than he did.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: Posted by Artanis:

other people's well-founded opinions, like yours,

Don't tell me such things to often otherwise I will start to belive in them.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Findegil
Melkor discovered than that he had dispressed his power. As Tolkien discriebed in Morgoth's Ring that was really the piont of no return for Melkor.

Just to be sure I understand you right: Even if Melkor had repented after the fall of Utumno, the evil forces he had poured out into the world could not be 'called back', because he had no control over them anymore. But if he had repented then, or later, his repentance would still be valid to Eru, don't you think?

I looked up the passage in MR about Melkor's 'near-repentance'-experience, and it says:

Either Manwe must tell him so or he must himself suddenly realize (or both) that this has happened: he is 'dispersed'. But the lust to have creatures under him, dominated, has become habitual and necessary to Melkor, so that even if the process was reversible (possibly was by absolute and unfeigned self-abasement and repentance only) he cannot bring himself to do it.* As with all other characters there must be a trembling moment when it is in the balance: he nearly repents - and does not, and becomes much wickeder, and more foolish.

Later the text says:

In any case, in seeking to absorb or rather to infiltrate himself throughout 'matter', what was then left of him was no longer powerful enough to reclothe itself. (It would now remain fixed in the desire to do so: there was no 'repentance' or possibility of it: Melkor had abandoned for ever all 'spiritual' ambitions, and existed almost solely as a desire to possess and dominate matter, and Arda in particular.)

This strongly suggests that Melkor was not able to repent, at least not as long as Ea exist. Perhaps it will be different after the end of the world, if he really gets to understand Eru's intent and his own role.

Don't tell me such things to often otherwise I will start to belive in them.

So what. It's true.

[Artanis]

Oh, happy birthday, Findegil!

[Findegil]

Oh, happy birthday, Findegil!

Thank you Artanis and all fellow mooters that would have added their greeting to the anniversary of my birth (don't do it, it would only pump up the thread).

Posted by Artanis:

Just to be sure I understand you right: Even if Melkor had repented after the fall of Utumno, the evil forces he had poured out into the world could not be 'called back', because he had no control over them anymore. But if he had repented then, or later, his repentance would still be valid to Eru, don't you think?

Exactly.

Posted by Artanis:

This strongly suggests that Melkor was not able to repent, at least not as long as Ea exist. Perhaps it will be different after the end of the world, if he really gets to understand Eru's intent and his own role.

Your interpretation of the quoted passage is perfect, but it was gainsaid in part in the next paragraph [The History of Middle-Earth; volume 10: Morgoth's Ring; part 5?: Myths Transformed; I do not in the moment know the actual text number and headline, the quote is taken from an other board]:

At least it could not yet reclothe itself. We need not suppose that Manwë was deluded into supposing that this had been a war to end war, or even to end Melkor. Melkor was not Sauron. We speak of him being 'weakened, shrunken, reduced'; but this is in comparison with the great Valar. He had been a being of immense potency and life. The Elves certainly held and taught that fear or 'spirits' may grow of their own life (independently of the body), even as they may be hurt and healed, be diminished and renewed. The dark spirit of Melkor's 'remainder' might be expected, therefore, eventually and after long ages to increase again, even (as some held) to draw back into itself some of its formerly dissipated power. It would do this (even if Sauron could not) because of its relative greatness.

Otherwise the Dagor Dagorath would not be possible at all. That does not mean that Melkor would repent before the Dagorath but it shows that he was not as fixed in his doom as was Sauron. You are clearly right that Melkor would not repent before the end of Arda.

In considering this answer a thought entered my mind that is related to the fate of Melkor and the Dagorath: When we look at Gollum and his role in the destruction of the one Ring, he did the one and only think to save Frodo and the hole Middle-Earth. He did it with out good intention toward Frodo or anybody else than himself, and his actions worked not the way he intended them but still it was done.
Cold it be that Melkor had a similar role to play with the Valar and Arda? His last attack was the only chance for the Valar to do what they had so long delayed out of love for the world: To rout out evil from the world by destroying Arda with all its Melkor ingredient, so that it could be build anew.
That does of course not mean that Melkors intention was good and he had repented by that time. But is does again show how out of evil can come good even more fair than was seen before the evil was done.
And in addition it would be the only chance for Melkor: The object of his uttermost desire was gone for good. He had a chance for reconsidering when his will fixed on the domination of Arda was cleaned from that desire.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Findegil
Cold it be that Melkor had a similar role to play with the Valar and Arda? His last attack was the only chance for the Valar to do what they had so long delayed out of love for the world: To rout out evil from the world by destroying Arda with all its Melkor ingredient, so that it could be build anew.

I assume you're talking about the Last Battle when the world is old, as foretold in the second prophecy of Mandos?

That does of course not mean that Melkors intention was good and he had repented by that time. But is does again show how out of evil can come good even more fair than was seen before the evil was done.

Yes, that's a nice thought, and I think we see some of the same when Melkor had cast down the lamps, and the song of Yavanna and the tears of Nienna brought about The Two Trees. It's in harmony with what Eru said in the first music of the ainur:

And thou Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he who attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

He had a chance for reconsidering when his will fixed on the domination of Arda was cleaned from that desire.

This is of course a good point, when the object of desire no longer exists, the desire will disappear. But will the anger and hatefulness also disappear?

[Cute_Elfik]

....I am sure he didn't die.He left with the Elves to the lands....because he felt the power of the ring as Frodo did, and it left a scar that can't be removen!His mission is over, and he can leave in piece with Elves until they all will be forgotten!!!


.....(didn't get how can I change "hobbit"......I am not a hobbit.... ...)

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Cute_Elfik
....I am sure he didn't die.He left with the Elves to the lands....because he felt the power of the ring as Frodo did, and it left a scar that can't be removen!His mission is over, and he can leave in piece with Elves until they all will be forgotten!!!


.....(didn't get how can I change "hobbit"......I am not a hobbit.... ...)

Hey you! Are yopu from Israel?

you won't be 'Hobbit' when you get to 50 posts. Then you'll be 'enting'. Afterwards:
100 - elven warrior
500 - elf lord, or anything you want to put as a title.

[Ararax]

well in a sense no maiar dies jsut as no valar dies, they can lose a body of there own will or chose a new one though some tiems a certain amount of pwer is in ones body, aka saurons like when he escaped from numenor

[Silpion]

Gandalf is a Maia so I always thought he wouldn't die once he sailed from the Grey Havens. His task on Middle Earth was complete, but I didn't think that the completion of his task had anything to do with the length of his life. I thought, if anything, he might want to change his form from an old man to whatever it was before he arrived on Middle Earth.