Orcs

[Artanis]

Orcs were made by Melkor (whether it was from Elves or Men doesn't matter much in this context) and corrupted to evil. They are still influenced by his evil spirit, and seem incapable of doing anything good. You compare the evil deeds of Men and Elves on one side and Orcs on the other, but you cannot compare their good actions, because on the side of the orcs there are none.

Time for another quote, from HoME 10, Morgoth's Ring - Myths Transformed:

See 'Melkor'. It will there be seen that the wills of Orcs and Balrogs etc. are part of Melkor's power 'dispersed'. Their spirit is one of hate. But hate is non-cooperative (except under direct fear). Hence the rebellions, mutinies, etc. when Morgoth seems far off. Orcs are beasts and Balrogs corrupted Maiar. Also (n.b.) Morgoth not Sauron is the source of Orc-wills. Sauron is just another (if greater) agent. Orcs can rebel against him without losing their own irremediable allegiance to evil (Morgoth).

I say the free people of Middle-Earth were right in pursuing and killing all the orcs they could reach.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
They are still influenced by his evil spirit, and seem incapable of doing anything good. You compare the evil deeds of Men and Elves on one side and Orcs on the other, but you cannot compare their good actions, because on the side of the orcs there are none.
I say the free people of Middle-Earth were right in pursuing and killing all the orcs they could reach.

*standing ovation for Artanis*

[Wayfarer]

But the fact remains, as you have illustrated once again- the /reason/ orcs are as they are is because they are under the influence of the morgoth-element. This was the same will which, even diffused through sauron and the ring was strong enough that it wasily corrupted Smeagol, Boromir, and ultimately Frodo, and tempted the wisest of the wise- even Gandalf. It still stands that, whatever the orcs were, they were because of force.

And why couldn't that be remedied? The ringbearers went into the west so that they could be healed of their wounds- morgul blade, spider sting, and most of all the weight of bearing the ring. It's worth noting that each of these was ultimately similar in character to the magic that produced the orcs. Why couldn't the orcs have been similarly cured of their curse?

[Artanis]

Melkor used his sub-creative power to make the orcs. He invested his power into smaller parts, so to speak, like Sauron invested most of his power in the One Ring. The orcs could be viewed as small Melkors, and should be destroyed.

From letter #153 (my emphasis):

But if they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did, and started making things 'for himself, to be their Lord', these would then 'be', even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other 'rational' creatures like Elves or Men. They would at least 'be' real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence – even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.)

So orcs are naturally bad - but not irredeemable. But I think a 'miracle' would be required to 'cure' an orc. That is because a heeling must be volunteered to. No orc would choose to go west of free will, even if they were allowed.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
So orcs are naturally bad - but not irredeemable. But I think a 'miracle' would be required to 'cure' an orc. That is because a heeling must be volunteered to. No orc would choose to go west of free will, even if they were allowed.

*chants* GO Artanis GO! GO Artanis GO! GO Artanis GO!

[Indril Anarion]

I believe orcs are evil...their minds have been decayed by evil for so long that they probably would not know good if it bit them in the face...there can be no redemption without a will to be reedeemed

[Gwaimir Windgem]

But good wouldn't do that.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
But good wouldn't do that.

How would you know if good would or wouldn't bite someone or something in the face? Do you speak for good? What if good was in a really pissy mood and someone came up to good and pushed good's buttons. I would think that good would open up a can of whoop *ss on that someone and whoa! watch out, good would be all over that someone like white on rice. You just never know. It's the quiet ones you have to watch out for.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ruinel
*chants* GO Artanis GO! GO Artanis GO! GO Artanis GO!

Thanks Ruinel!

[Fat middle]

There is another passage in Myths Transformed where JRRT discussed the idea whether orcs have feä or not.

I think he wanted them not to have feä, but he found a problem that they could speak. Sometime he say that speaking is not a definite proof of having feä, but other times he says it is.

So i think that JRRT wanted orcs to be evil and irredimable.

[Artanis]

I don't think Tolkien managed to reach a conclusion. I seem to remember he wanted them not to be of Elvish origin, but were forced to accept the possibility.

But if orcs are currupted forms of Elves and Men, then they certainly must have fëar?

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Artanis
I don't think Tolkien managed to reach a conclusion. I seem to remember he wanted them not to be of Elvish origin, but were forced to accept the possibility.

Actually, i think that his last essay about orcs (with the new myth of the sun) is very near to prove their mannish origin.

Originally posted by Artanis
But if orcs are currupted forms of Elves and Men, then they certainly must have fëar?

Not necessary. Remember that he fiddled with the idea of crossing men with animals. He even say once that orcs were animals.

Could that crossing bring beings without feä? possibly. the problem, as i said is that those beings were able to speak.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Fat middle
Actually, i think that his last essay about orcs (with the new myth of the sun) is very near to prove their mannish origin.

Hm, I wasn't left with that impression. Have to re-read it.

Could that crossing bring beings without feä? possibly. the problem, as i said is that those beings were able to speak.

Does that imply there's a direct connection between having a fëa and the ability to speak? What about the Eagles and Ents then, do they have fëar?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Ruinel
How would you know if good would or wouldn't bite someone or something in the face? Do you speak for good? What if good was in a really pissy mood and someone came up to good and pushed good's buttons. I would think that good would open up a can of whoop *ss on that someone and whoa! watch out, good would be all over that someone like white on rice. You just never know. It's the quiet ones you have to watch out for.

What a peculiar person...

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Artanis
Does that imply there's a direct connection between having a fëa and the ability to speak? What about the Eagles and Ents then, do they have fëar?

I don't know about the Ents, but Tokien discussed the problem of the Eagles and of Huan. The only he was able to say was that those should be "exceptions" allowed by the Valar. When i read that i got the impression that he was not satisfied with that solution.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
What a peculiar person...

I do my best.

Originally posted by Artanis
Thanks Ruinel!

Anytime.

Originally posted by Artanis
Does that imply there's a direct connection between having a fëa and the ability to speak?

That opens up a whole can of worms! Especially if you include Huan. Do we say then that anything that speaks a language is sentient and therefore must have a fëa?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Fat middle
Actually, i think that his last essay about orcs (with the new myth of the sun) is very near to prove their mannish origin.

I've read it again and agree with you. I must have been half asleep when I read it the first time But the text does include a possibility for an Elvish strain in the orcs as well. And that some orcs may have been lesser Maiar corrupted by Melkor, taking orcish forms.

More about the evilness of orcs, from Myths transformed:

They were indeed so corrupted that they were pitiless, and there was no cruelty or wickedness that they would not commit; but this was the corruption of independent wills, and they took pleasure in their deeds. They were capable of acting on their own, doing evil deeds unbidden for their own sport; or if Morgoth and his agents were far away, they might neglect his commands.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
But the text does include a possibility for an Elvish strain in the orcs as well. And that some orcs may have been lesser Maiar corrupted by Melkor, taking orcish forms.

The Sil only states that Orcs have Elvish origins. When was this essay in Myth's Transformed actually written?

[Melko Belcha]

Originally posted by Ruinel
The Sil only states that Orcs have Elvish origins. When was this essay in Myth's Transformed actually written?

Myth's Transformed is in HoME X Morgoth's Ring. I can't remember the date, but I think it was somewhere in the late 50's and 60's.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Melko Belcha
Myth's Transformed is in HoME X Morgoth's Ring. I can't remember the date, but I think it was somewhere in the late 50's and 60's.

Thanks, I'll read it tonight. I wonder why he changed his mind?