Good and Evil

[Rían]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
It is true that the punishment may be handed out in different degrees depending on sanity and insanity, but if a insane man commits a horrific crime, and a sane man commits an equally horrific crime, is not the act of both crimes equally as evil? The punishment may differ and vary, but the evil is the same.

But you're not looking at the whole picture - yes, the evil done to the victim is exactly the same, but there is a difference of evil as far as the perpetrator and others involved - in one case (insanity), there is no evil intent because of the lack of clear thinking; in the other (sanity), there IS evil intent, which does damage to the person who considers and chooses to act on the evil thought. (Sorry, I"m not wording this too well, I have an 'evil' headache!)

Also, there is less evil done to the other people involved (family, etc) and even those who hear of the crime, IMO, if there is not evil intent - we as moral humans recognize and are properly revolted by evil intentions and acts, and recognize that there is less evil when an evil act is unintentional or of less intent (due to less mental capability, etc.)

[Coney]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
But you're not looking at the whole picture - yes, the evil done to the victim is exactly the same, but there is a difference of evil as far as the perpetrator and others involved - in one case (insanity), there is no evil intent because of the lack of clear thinking; in the other (sanity), there IS evil intent, which does damage to the person who considers and chooses to act on the evil thought. (Sorry, I"m not wording this too well, I have an 'evil' headache!)

Also, there is less evil done to the other people involved (family, etc) and even those who hear of the crime, IMO, if there is not evil intent - we as moral humans recognize and are properly revolted by evil intentions and acts, and recognize that there is less evil when an evil act is unintentional or of less intent (due to less mental capability, etc.)

Hmm....this seems to beg the question "Is being evil or good a choice, or an inherint trait?"........

[Rían]

I think different people have different tendencies to different evils - due to personality, psychological makeup, health issues, etc. - but there is certainly choice involved, at the very least in some areas, and probably a lot more than we would like to admit...

[Lief Erikson]

It seems to me, RÃ*an, that your post and SGH's aren't in disagreement though, really. To me, SGH was talking primarily about the effect upon the victim, while you were talking about the cause.

Some people have more excuse for doing their evil, but the thing that is done is just as horrible regardless of who did it, is what SGH is saying. However, they aren't just as wicked as the individuals who did it with the full knowledge of what they were doing, which is what RÃ*an is saying.

Or, SGH, am I misunderstanding you?

[Coney]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I think different people have different tendencies to different evils - due to personality, psychological makeup, health issues, etc. - but there is certainly choice involved, at the very least in some areas, and probably a lot more than we would like to admit...

So you believe that some people are born with evil tendancies and that some people are drawn towards them?......and that circumstances make those tendancies stronger?

That is very interesting.....

Some people have more excuse for doing their evil

And what would this excuse be Lief?..........just curious..

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I expect such as circumstances (i.e. if a girl leads a guy on, and is making out with him, getting him all fired up, toying with him, but won't actually "do it", he could easily get frustrated; while this would still be terrible, it wouldn't be as bad as a serial rapist, IMO; or like Absalom, when Amnon raped his sister Tamar, his murder of Amnon was partially justified, IMO)

[Coney]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I expect such as circumstances (i.e. if a girl leads a guy on, and is making out with him, getting him all fired up, toying with him, but won't actually "do it", he could easily get frustrated; while this would still be terrible, it wouldn't be as bad as a serial rapist, IMO; or like Absalom, when Amnon raped his sister Tamar, his murder of Amnon was partially justified, IMO)

Yeah but that example is just too evils (two wrongs don't make a right)........frustration does not have to lead to an evil act (well, not if yer in full control of yerself anyway)*shrugs*..........so lack of willpower and an overwhelming sense of vengence (inherant values) contribute to the making an evil act?

[Agalayth]

I really don't know whether I believe that if one didn't exist that the other wouldn't either. One thing that I believe in is free will. I believe that if you are to be evil, it is by your own free will. You can choose whether you are good or evil, and I think that part of life is making that decision. Even though I'm Jewish, I don't exactly believe that God created the world and the whole Adam & Eve thing. I believe that God doesn't have that much impact on our lives unless you believe in him/her/it. So one way to not be evil is to get in touch with God.

Those are my thoughts.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

No, no, no, no! I wasn't saying that it would make it RIGHT, nor that he would HAVE to: I am just saying that those circumstances would make it less horrific, and incomprehensible to other people. I am saying those are excuses for doing it, things that make it more understandable, and less monstrous to us.

Other examples of "excuses" would be like insanity. But none of these INVALIDATE the wrongness of what is done, by any means.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
No, no, no, no! I wasn't saying that it would make it RIGHT, nor that he would HAVE to: I am just saying that those circumstances would make it less horrific, and incomprehensible to other people. I am saying those are excuses for doing it, things that make it more understandable, and less monstrous to us.

Other examples of "excuses" would be like insanity. But none of these INVALIDATE the wrongness of what is done, by any means.

So an evil act is, in certan circumstances, less evil?.....For exampe: If it is done to justify an evil act on another?..........If a man is capable of commiting murder in the height of his emotions, then hasn't he always been capable of such an act?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

No, the act is always evil. The action itself is always as evil, I believe. But the circumstances in which it was done can make the doer less.

And no, I don't believe so. Many people would kill to save themselves, or their families, who wouldn't kill for most reasons.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
No, the act is always evil. The action itself is always as evil, I believe. But the circumstances in which it was done can make the doer less.

And no, I don't believe so. Many people would kill to save themselves, or their families, who wouldn't kill for most reasons.

So you see a basic evil act as being "less" evil under certain circumstances?

That is very interesting.......

[Gwaimir Windgem]

No. The evil itself is no less. But the evil of the one who does it, the evil of one who does it, changes with the circumstances, in my opinion.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
No. The evil itself is no less. But the evil of the one who does it, the evil of one who does it, changes with the circumstances, in my opinion.

I'm confused here (for a change).

Are you saying that an evil act is always an evil act but under certain circumstances an individual may commit an evil act but he/she is not considered evil or acting evil?

[Sister Golden Hair]

SGH, am I misunderstanding you?

I'm a little late replying Lief, but no, you seem to understand exactly what I was saying.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Coney
I'm confused here (for a change).

Are you saying that an evil act is always an evil act but under certain circumstances an individual may commit an evil act but he/she is not considered evil or acting evil?

Not quite. Under certain circumstances, an individual may commot an evil act but he/she is considered less evil.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Not quite. Under certain circumstances, an individual may commot an evil act but he/she is considered less evil.

Interesting........I always consider an evil act to be an evil act, whatever the circumstances.

I can understand why people would commit such acts.(say for example somone rapes someones wife, then the hubby goes and kills the rapist) but it would still be an evil act, done in all conciousness. I guess what is evil is up to our own morals/ethics.

So, in your opinion, how does an evil act become less evil?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Agalayth
I really don't know whether I believe that if one didn't exist that the other wouldn't either. One thing that I believe in is free will. I believe that if you are to be evil, it is by your own free will.

Free will is an illusion. But this whole discussion brings up the point that there are no real evil or good acts. Evil and good is defined by human perception only. If one man attacks another man with his bare hands, rips him to shreds and eats him I think we would all consider that the ultimate act of dispicable evil. However..... if a lion does that to an antelope well thats just nature. So evil and good are a lens through which we humans percieve our world. And in this way we need opposite extremes as the frames to keep our world in perspective. In this way we cant have evil without good or vice versa.

[Sister Golden Hair]

So, in your opinion, how does an evil act become less evil?

Perhaps it is the amount of understanding the act in the mind of the perpetrator. For example: if a child kills another child, with the intent of killing, how much does that child understand the act or the evil of it? Isn't this why kids can't be tried as adults under a certian age?

[Wayfarer]

*ahem*

There can be circumstances under which an evil action can be understood and forgiven. That does not mean it actually is less evil.

If, say, Murder is an evil action, there are still sometimes going to be circumstances where people will feel that it's somehow justified. This is not because the action is /less/ evil under those circumstances, but because we ourselves would tend to act evil were we faced with the same situation.