Metaphysical discussion

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Lizra
I "sensed" that coming!

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Bleh. Everything degenerates into a religious discussion.

Miracles are included in the supernatural genre.

Anyway, you can ignore the post about the Christian supernatural experiences if you wish and only look at the other. No one needs to respond to it, but you must take a small glimpse from my standpoint. I believe in magic, but at the same time believe it is from the devil. And I believe in the supernatural and that God acts in the ways described in the Bible. At this moment I've been defending magic, to some extent, but I have three options.

Firstly I can defend it to the best of my ability without mentioning what I see to be the way in which the supernatural is good. In doing this I run the risk that Jonathan or others will go and check out these cults or supernatural based religions for themselves, as is necessary for them to do in order to know whether what they say is really true or not. Their doing this is one way in which they could gain a measure of understanding on the subject, but as I see it, it greatly endangers them in terms of being led into evil. One of my uncles tried that out, experiencing with a New Ageist an out of body experience. He felt his spirit leaving his body and was badly scared, and because of that he became a Christian. Another of my uncles is currently a New Ageist. I believe that some of the people claiming magical powers have real experiences and can prove it to people that act in their methods. Thus my arguing too well from that side of things would (as I see it) be dangerous to others, which is why I would like to have a more clear perspective.

Secondly I can speak on what I believe to be the more full scope of the supernatural. I can speak about angels and miracles (The good side) as well as defending the existence of the bad side.

Thirdly I can go entirely from the good side and totally ignore the 'magic' side of things. In doing this I ignore a large part of the discussion going on here while giving people what they may see as a religious pep talk.


I have chosen to act on the second option. This enables me to speak more freely on the subjects people are talking about, in terms of metaphysics and the existence of magic, but it also enables me to speak from my own experience, about what I see to be the good side of the supernatural. So it basically enables me to enter more fully into the metaphysics discussion, bringing in my full beliefs rather than a part of them. All clear now?

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Firstly I can defend it to the best of my ability without mentioning what I see to be the way in which the supernatural is good. In doing this I run the risk that Jonathan or others will go and check out these cults or supernatural based religions for themselves, as is necessary for them to do in order to know whether what they say is really true or not. Their doing this is one way in which they could gain a measure of understanding on the subject, but as I see it, it greatly endangers them in terms of being led into evil.

Hehe, I don't know about the others, but you don't have to worry about me I will not seek contact with satanists or other suspicious and evil cults. I don't like them and want nothing to do with them. If I want to gain understanding about them, I can read objective books and articles. The last thing I want is to become a satanist myself.

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Secondly I can speak on what I believe to be the more full scope of the supernatural. I can speak about angels and miracles (The good side) as well as defending the existence of the bad side.

I have chosen to act on the second option. This enables me to speak more freely on the subjects people are talking about, in terms of metaphysics and the existence of magic, but it also enables me to speak from my own experience, about what I see to be the good side of the supernatural. So it basically enables me to enter more fully into the metaphysics discussion, bringing in my full beliefs rather than a part of them. All clear now?

Good choice, the second option. Everything is clear. And unlike BeardofPants I have nothing against this turning into a religious discussion. I am not a religious person, but I still believe religion is something good. Faith is something powerful, which can make people stronger and let them experience supernatural things.
Though, it is my belief that faith itself is not supernatural. Faith cannot make magic miracles happen, yet faith has the power to make incredible things happen, as long as they are natural.

But I'm just a cold and rational scientist-wannabe. I'm sure the rest of you have different views on miracles, religion and faith.

[Aeryn]

Okay--the metaphysical...

I opt for something like a la matrix...I enjoy being the minority.

Religion-Faith-Miracles.

Faith is an emotion like love or happiness, it can cause rational and irrational behavior. Rational IE You believe in god, you want to bring others to god. Irrational kill people who don't believe what you believe calling them heretics. (In this case I am using the Catholic/Christian beliefs.)

Religion- Just SAY it's real, I don't care if I'm "lost".

SAY it's make believe. It's a wonderful little system for obedience.

Miracles are like rumors...they ARE rumors, there never seems to be proof ya know? And from person to person it gets bigger and wilder until a said good deed is now a miracle. Something like that...broke into simplistic 3 AM mind form.

[afro-elf]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Bleh. Everything degenerates into a religious discussion.

I am going to remove myself from this discussion.

[Aeryn]

Party pooper.

[Lizra]

There are several threads already devoted to religion....Goodbye.

[Lief Erikson]

Lizra and Afro-elf, would my stopping posting make things better? I don't need another religion topic to make me happy .

[Lizra]

Oh no, carry on with Jonathan (and Aeryn)......He started the thread, and wants to talk about it. I have already devoted time and thought in the "Should evolution be taught in school" thread, and don't have the desire to repeat myself. You all continue

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Jonathan
I am not a religious person, but I still believe religion is something good. Faith is something powerful, which can make people stronger and let them experience supernatural things.

Why do you think faith makes people stronger?

Originally posted by Jonathan
Though, it is my belief that faith itself is not supernatural. Faith cannot make magic miracles happen, yet faith has the power to make incredible things happen, as long as they are natural.

So are you saying that faith inspires people to do things. They have faith that it will succeed because God is going to bless them or their efforts, so in their actions they go to new heights or attempt to accomplish things that they don't think they could normally accomplish. The human being is capable of a lot, they just generally lack confidence in themselves and are also lazy. So having God to inspire them drives them to greater things. Is that your basic view on faith?

[Insidious Rex]

Faith isnt even an emotion. Its simply a point of view based on a belief. I dont see it as metaphysical at all. At best its a phenomenal psychological crutch. But more likely its an illusion used to butress up a series of unknowns.

[afro-elf]

Lizra I think that Insidious Rex carries the banner well.

From these failing hands we pass the torch...

Also, Lief is one of the most courteous believers you will engage.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Faith isnt even an emotion. Its simply a point of view based on a belief. I dont see it as metaphysical at all. At best its a phenomenal psychological crutch. But more likely its an illusion used to butress up a series of unknowns.

That sounds like a very reasonable point of view. As I said in my previous post though, God doesn't expect us to come to him already believing in him. All we have to do is come, whether we believe beforehand or not. And if we encounter him when we come, as he promises that we will in the Bible, then we can base our faith upon knowledge.

Also about faith's not being metaphysical. We are agreed that science cannot prove or disprove the existence of the spiritual realm, correct?

Taking this as a premise, I think that I can safely state that faith's being simple psychology or in any way metaphysical is entirely a matter of opinion that people can have, based upon their own experience. For if God did make the world and the physical and spiritual interact, then while you are only on one side, only capable of seeing the physical, you cannot tell with any degree of certainty what (if anything) is the effect of things upon the spiritual. So faith or love might be effecting another realm; you simply don't know.

And just like I was telling Jonathan, who was saying that magic was basically hocus pocus, unless you go and find out clearly what's to be found, you simply can't know. Based upon the knowledge you have of one realm, one can't go making statements about another realm.

But even if one can't know from the physical if there is a spiritual, one can go to the means that the spiritual provides to enable people to know it. This can go for magic and witchcraft as well as for Christianity. These things provide a means to an end, and that end is greater contact with the spiritual realm. With Christianity, it is contact with God, with witchcraft and magic- well, I don't know what is the object of all their cults, I haven't studied them.

[Lief Erikson]

Ahhh . . . On second thought, my entering into this discussion might not be a good idea. As my knowledge and opinions are a lot stronger on Christianity and I know a lot less about other metaphysical beliefs, I think that I'd be causing this thread to transform into a debate about Christianity, period. Lizra, Afro-elf, and BeardofPants, I think you probably were all right, I'll probably end up shifting entirely to my option 3 that I gave in my reasoning .

So I'm leaving now. Another party-pooper to add to your list, Aeryn .

[Jonathan]

Everybody is leaving the discussion

Anyway, thinking of metaphysics, have someone read Immanuel Kant? I have not, but I wonder if his thoughts about metaphysics are worth reading.

[Lizra]

Originally posted by afro-elf
Lizra I think that Insidious Rex carries the banner well.

From these failing hands we pass the torch...

Also, Lief is one of the most courteous believers you will engage.

Yes, I can "sense" a connection with Insideous Rex! I am too busy to go around repeating myself. Once (or twice, maybe three times ) was enough! Anduril holds the endurance record for the "God, no God" debates! I'll pass!

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Lizra
Yes, I can "sense" a connection with Insideous Rex! I am too busy to go around repeating myself. Once (or twice, maybe three times ) was enough! Anduril holds the endurance record for the "God, no God" debates! I'll pass!

hmm see its good being a newbie because when you run up against the old worn out arguments you can act like you didnt realize it.

Anyway I dont really see a problem with discussing the possibility of a supernatural power (chirstian or otherwise) in a thread about metaphysics. Its general enough. And you can always hijack the argument back again if you feel its getting to christian specific and start talking about dimension theory or leprechauns or something.....

But even if one can't know from the physical if there is a spiritual, one can go to the means that the spiritual provides to enable people to know it. This can go for magic and witchcraft as well as for Christianity. These things provide a means to an end, and that end is greater contact with the spiritual realm.

I pretty much agree with everything you said their leif. how can we as humans, limited as we are and not all knowing, know for sure something doesnt exist? of course we cant. perhaps some day we will be able to find god or magic in the Big Equation but so far we havent and I guess thats where faith comes in. Perhaps we cant handle the complexities of the math you need to get there yet. or perhaps god doesnt want us to see his mathematical fingerprint at this point. or perhaps the equation is finite and there is no god in the math. OR perhaps we can never get the full picture. Thats where i would lean really. and all we can ever do is try to connect the dots as close as possible till everything that exists lies inside the curve and we can account for everything. but i dont think we ever can. i dont think our brains will be able to take us there. there will always be room for the unexplained and therefor for faith in a universe where we cant reach all the answers. but..... that being said... if we cant actually express it in numbers then it isnt fact. its opinion. no way of getting around that.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Anyway I dont really see a problem with discussing the possibility of a supernatural power (chirstian or otherwise) in a thread about metaphysics. Its general enough. And you can always hijack the argument back again if you feel its getting to christian specific and start talking about dimension theory or leprechauns or something.....

Good plan! We'll keep it in mind . Leprechauns, yes, that'd be fun. We'll save it as Plan B, in case religion gets too hot.

Well, I agree with everything you said too, Insidious Rex, except the final conclusion . Very good remarks on mathematical evidence, and I agree with you that we just about certainly will never know while here on Earth everything there is to know about the universe.
Looks like we might be able to keep this debate short after all. That'd be a first!

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
but..... that being said... if we cant actually express it in numbers then it isnt fact. its opinion. no way of getting around that.

Allow me to try to get around it . If somebody clearly sees the Loch Ness monster, then it plainly is fact that the Loch Ness monster exists. It isn't opinion, it's simply fact that not everyone is acquainted with. It isn't verifiable scientific fact though, I'll give you that.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Lizra
Yes, I can "sense" a connection with Insideous Rex!

You seem to have very strongly attuned senses, Lizra. I think you're in touch with the supernatural. You sure you don't belong in this thread ?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Allow me to try to get around it . If somebody clearly sees the Loch Ness monster, then it plainly is fact that the Loch Ness monster exists. It isn't opinion, it's simply fact that not everyone is acquainted with. It isn't verifiable scientific fact though, I'll give you that.

well sure. but its a bit of apples and oranges there. I mean every year hundreds of new species are found in remote locations all over the world. the mathematical (archealogical really) evidence for finding a huge dinosaur in a body of water in scotland are remote but anything is possible i suppose. but you could probably say the odds are fantastic. where as we can assume god is not hiding somewhere in the bottom of a lake or in some remote vietnamese mountain jungle. gods "existance" is a vastly more complicated conundrum because we dont know how really to define gods existance. we cant really concieve it in the same way we can an animal on earth. thats where the equation ends and you have no choice but to say its gotta be opinion until we find out otherwise.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
You seem to have very strongly attuned senses, Lizra. I think you're in touch with the supernatural. You sure you don't belong in this thread ?

hey im just a supernatural kinda guy.